"A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a failure." – USA Today, 10/31/05

Response:

> "A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a > solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a > failure." > – USA Today, 10/31/05

So? Lars

Response:

> > "A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a > solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a > failure." > – USA Today, 10/31/05 > So? > Lars

So TamPax thinks bullshit printed in a lefty rag like USA Today means something. LV

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > "A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a > > solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a > > failure." > > – USA Today, 10/31/05 > So? > Lars > So TamPax thinks bullshit printed in a lefty rag like USA Today means > something. > LV

Even if it were true, it wouldn’t mean anything. He’ll be president for another 3 years whether the TamPaxes like it or not. Lars

Response:

> a lefty rag like USA Today

That statement proves, once again, what an idiot you are.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>"A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a >>>solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a >>>failure." >>>- USA Today, 10/31/05 >>So? >>Lars >So TamPax thinks bullshit printed in a lefty rag like USA Today means >something. >LV > Even if it were true, it wouldn’t mean anything. He’ll be president for > another 3 years whether the TamPaxes like it or not. > Lars

That all depends on how many repugs sign on to the idea of impeachment. Oh yes, it’s coming…. Mike

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>"A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a >>>>solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a >>>>failure." >>>>- USA Today, 10/31/05 >>>So? >>>Lars >>So TamPax thinks bullshit printed in a lefty rag like USA Today means >>something. >>LV > Even if it were true, it wouldn’t mean anything. He’ll be president for > another 3 years whether the TamPaxes like it or not. > Lars > That all depends on how many repugs sign on to the idea of > impeachment. > Oh yes, it’s coming…. > Mike

Oh, brother. We Republicans should only be so lucky. Too bad that the left only has *mock* impeachments. Lars

Response:

>> "A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a > solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a > failure." > – USA Today, 10/31/05 >So? >Lars

No brains, no headaches, huh Lurch?

Response:

>> a lefty rag like USA Today >That statement proves, once again, what an idiot you are.

And we didn’t need more proof….

Response:

>>>"A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a >>solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a >>failure." >>- USA Today, 10/31/05 >So? > So TamPax thinks bullshit printed in a lefty rag like USA Today means > something. > LV

This, from a fat-belly flatbilly convinced that completely unregulated markets don’t lead to Enron/Tyco/Healthsouth/Worldcom/ [Citigroup, who's thieves were proven to be behind these whores]. As if the oil companies shouldn’t now be forced to expand refinery capacity. As if the global auto industry selling cars into the USA shouldn’t be forced into mpg restraints, incrementally. As if lobbyists don’t own D.C. and the press matters at all. "Free"? The American Corpocracy mirrors State Sponsored totalitarianism in virtually every sense short of bullets in the back of the head and Security hostage taking at 2AM for torture and disappearance. The influence of Chinese market fundamentalism upon what was once American capitalism happens in tiny increments. Who among you (besides the Hog here) thinks life in the USA (population 1 Billion+ 2405 A.D.) will be *anything* like it was from a legal/state/human rights perspective during our lifetimes? Could our history be destroyed by future "victors"? Mortality is a divine gift, youth is wasted on the young and chances are, you’re an imbecile.

Response:

courageously avow: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>>>"A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a > >>>>solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a > >>>>failure." > >>>>- USA Today, 10/31/05 > >>>So? > >>>Lars > >>So TamPax thinks bullshit printed in a lefty rag like USA Today means > >>something. > >>LV > > Even if it were true, it wouldn’t mean anything. He’ll be president for > > another 3 years whether the TamPaxes like it or not. > > Lars > That all depends on how many repugs sign on to the idea of > impeachment. > Oh yes, it’s coming…. > Mike >Oh, brother. We Republicans should only be so lucky. Too bad that the >left only has *mock* impeachments. >Lars

Ask Richard Nixon about mock impeachments. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, Max Floater and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Lars Overshank (aka ‘The Cowardly Lion’) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > courageously avow: >> >>>>"A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a >> >>>>solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a >> >>>>failure." >> >>>>- USA Today, 10/31/05 >> >>>So? >> >>>Lars >> >>So TamPax thinks bullshit printed in a lefty rag like USA Today means >> >>something. >> >>LV >> > Even if it were true, it wouldn’t mean anything. He’ll be president for >> > another 3 years whether the TamPaxes like it or not. >> > Lars >> That all depends on how many repugs sign on to the idea of >> impeachment. >> Oh yes, it’s coming…. >> Mike >Oh, brother. We Republicans should only be so lucky. Too bad that the >left only has *mock* impeachments. >Lars > Ask Richard Nixon about mock impeachments. > Ken Wilson

Why? He wasn’t impeached. Clinton, now, HE was. Anyway, as I said, we should only BE so lucky. Lars

Response:

> > Ask Richard Nixon about mock impeachments. > Why? He wasn’t impeached. Clinton, now, HE was

He resigned because he knew that he’d be CONVICTED by a vote of the US Senate. Clinton was found not guilty.

Response:

> Oh, brother. We Republicans should only be so lucky. Too bad that the > left only has *mock* impeachments. > Lars

The middle wants him gone as well.

Response:

>> Oh, brother. We Republicans should only be so lucky. Too bad that the > left only has *mock* impeachments. > Lars > The middle wants him gone as well.

Doubtful.

Response:

> >> "A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a >> solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a >> failure." >> – USA Today, 10/31/05 >So? >Lars > No brains, no headaches, huh Lurch?

Talking to Kerry AGAIN? He was YOUR candidate, not mine. And you talk about no brains. http://home.stny.rr.com/larsovershank/lurch.jpg Lars

Response:

>> Oh, brother. We Republicans should only be so lucky. Too bad that the > left only has *mock* impeachments. > Lars > The middle wants him gone as well.

Absolutely.  The obvious trend continues: http://www.pollkatz.homestead.com/files/pollkatzmainGRAPHICS_8911_ima… http://www.pollkatz.homestead.com/files/pollkatzmainGRAPHICS_9432_ima… See also: "Nearly a third of Republicans rate Bush negatively for handling ethics; that soars to large majorities of independents (71 percent) and Democrats (85 percent) alike." http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=1264205 There is even indication that he is losing the support of military families.  http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/13027623.htm Comparing approval to disapproval (tossing out "not familiar" responses), a majority disapprove of Bush’s * making tax cuts permanent * hurricane relief efforts * Supreme Court appointments * Homeland security * Environmental policies * Energy policies. Heck, that is EVERY CATEGORY polled on!  And EVERY trend on categories of approval is DOWN. http://sev.prnewswire.com/publishing-information-services/20051028/NY… It’s too bad that their eyes weren’t open a year ago…

Response:

>> > "A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday > > through Sunday shows that a solid majority of > > Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency > > to be a failure." > > – USA Today, 10/31/05 > So? >So TamPax thinks bullshit printed in a lefty rag like >USA Today means something.

* As opposed to a righty rag like WND? * It’s Gallup data; not USA Today’s. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

>> "A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday > through Sunday shows that a solid majority of > Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency > to be a failure." > – USA Today, 10/31/05 >So?

So he’s a loser, and more people are noticing it. I wish they’d noticed a little sooner, though… The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> "A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday >> through Sunday shows that a solid majority of >> Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency >> to be a failure." >> – USA Today, 10/31/05 >So? > So he’s a loser, and more people are noticing it. > I wish they’d noticed a little sooner, though… > The Repair Guy

So you don’t think he’ll get Alito confirmed? Interesting how many times your side has lost to a loser. I seem to remember Kerry also calling GWB a loser. Which raises the question, what do you call the guy who loses to a loser? Better decide, because I think Harry Reid will need to know the answer pretty soon. Lars

Response:

courageously avow: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> courageously avow: > >> >>>>"A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows that a > >> >>>>solid majority of Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency to be a > >> >>>>failure." > >> >>>>- USA Today, 10/31/05 > >> >>>So? > >> >>>Lars > >> >>So TamPax thinks bullshit printed in a lefty rag like USA Today means > >> >>something. > >> >>LV > >> > Even if it were true, it wouldn’t mean anything. He’ll be president for > >> > another 3 years whether the TamPaxes like it or not. > >> > Lars > >> That all depends on how many repugs sign on to the idea of > >> impeachment. > >> Oh yes, it’s coming…. > >> Mike > >Oh, brother. We Republicans should only be so lucky. Too bad that the > >left only has *mock* impeachments. > >Lars > Ask Richard Nixon about mock impeachments. > Ken Wilson >Why? He wasn’t impeached. Clinton, now, HE was. Anyway, as I said, we >should only BE so lucky. >Lars

The senate never convicted Clinton and he finished his term.  Nixon resigned before he could be impeached, which he knew he was a target for, allegedly so as not to bring disgrace on the office of President. How magnanimous of him. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, Max Floater and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Lars Overshank (aka ‘The Cowardly Lion’) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

>>> Oh, brother. We Republicans should only be so lucky. Too bad that the >> left only has *mock* impeachments. >> Lars > The middle wants him gone as well. > Doubtful.

You have been drinking the tainted Kool-Aid for too long!  I bet that you believe that overturning "Roe v. Wade" will make abortion illegal nationwide (it will not).  It seems that the middle is the only group that is not paralyzed by this "red herring" issue.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> "A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday > >> through Sunday shows that a solid majority of > >> Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency > >> to be a failure." > >> – USA Today, 10/31/05 > >So? > So he’s a loser, and more people are noticing it. > I wish they’d noticed a little sooner, though… >So you don’t think he’ll get Alito confirmed?

I don’t know. I figured he’d ramrod Miers in regardless of what anyone thought, the way he initially bragged her up. I haven’t decided if he really thought she’s that wonderful, if she’s just a lawyer he happens to know, if he was repaying a favor to somebody, or what. >Interesting how many times your side has lost to >a loser.

All that shows is that there are more loser-supporters on your side. >I seem to remember Kerry also calling GWB a loser.

I can’t argue with that. 55% of us evidently agree. >Which raises the question, what do you call the guy >who loses to a loser?

Good question. Say… Clinton won, at least once. Do you consider him a "winner"? >Better decide, because I think Harry Reid will need >to know the answer pretty soon.

Hoo boy… a Mormon. I don’t know much about him. "His father was an alcoholic gold miner who committed suicide." <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Reid> The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

I’d like to see them publish polls like these as a headline: Poll shows that most Americans feel that Senator Kennedy is a pompus ass. Lastest poll reveals that 54% of Americans feel that politicians in one of the political parties are pandering, self serving, disingenuous windbags.  68% believe that politicians in both political parties are pandering, self serving, disingenuous windbags. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>"A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday >>>through Sunday shows that a solid majority of >>>Americans, 55%, now judge Bush’s presidency >>>to be a failure." >>>- USA Today, 10/31/05 >>So? >So TamPax thinks bullshit printed in a lefty rag like >USA Today means something. > * As opposed to a righty rag like WND? > * It’s Gallup data; not USA Today’s. > The Repair Guy > http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Oh, brother. We Republicans should only be so lucky. Too bad that the >>> left only has *mock* impeachments. >>> Lars >> The middle wants him gone as well. > Doubtful. > You have been drinking the tainted Kool-Aid for too long!  I bet that you > believe that overturning "Roe v. Wade" will make abortion illegal > nationwide (it will not).  It seems that the middle is the only group that > is not paralyzed by this "red herring" issue.

For someone who needs to terminate their pregnancy, it is far from a red herring.

Response:

Looks like Bruce Morgen has failed for the upteenth time. What he didn’t post and doesn’t want you to know: Don’t Blame Bush for Katrina Christopher Ruddy Monday, Sept. 5, 2005 George Bush and the federal government are not to blame for the disaster we have witnessed in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. In fact, the primary responsibility for the disaster response lies with New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco and other local officials. Yet leading Democrats and their allies in the major media are clearly using this disaster for political purposes and ignoring one obvious fact. This fact — which needs to be repeated and remembered — is that in our country, state and local governments have primary responsibility in dealing with local disasters. The founding fathers devised a federal system of government — one that has served us remarkably well through great disasters that have befallen America over more than two centuries. But if we believe the major TV networks, George Bush, FEMA and the Republicans in Congress are all to blame for the current nightmare. Let’s remember that FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, was created only in 1979. It was formed to coordinate and focus federal response to major disasters — to "assist" local and state governments. Common sense suggests that local and state governments are best able to prepare and plan for local disasters. Is a Washington bureaucrat better suited to prepare for an earthquake in San Francisco, a hurricane in Florida, or a terrorist act in New York? After the Sept. 11 attacks against the World Trade Center, no one suggested that the Bush administration should have been responsible for New York’s disaster response or that federal agents should have been involved in the rescue of those trapped in the buildings. Last year, four major hurricanes slammed into Florida. Governor Jeb Bush led the disaster response and did a remarkable job, with nothing happening like what we have seen in New Orleans. The primary response in disasters has always come from local communities and state governments. First responders and the manpower to deal with emergencies come from local communities: police, fire and medical. Under our federal system, these local departments answer to local authorities, not those in Washington. These first responders are not even under federal control, nor do they have to follow federal orders. In addition to local responders, every state in the Union has a National Guard. State National Guards answer first to the governor of each state, not to the president. The National Guard exists not to defend one state from an invasion by another state, but primarily for emergencies like the one we have witnessed in New Orleans and in other areas impacted by Katrina. (See: http://www.arng.army.mil/about_us/organization/command_structure.asp) Tim Russert and the Blame Game The media would have you believe that this disaster was worsened by a slow response from President Bush and his administration, though the primary responsibility for disaster response has always been with local and state governments. It is true that federal response was not as fast as it could have been. The president himself has acknowledged that fact. But the press has focused on the first 48 hours of federal response, not uttering a word about the fact that New Orleans had 48 hours of warning that a major Category 4 or 5 would make landfall near the city, yet local officials apparently did little to prepare. Obviously, Gov. Blanco did not effectively deploy her state’s National Guard. And New Orleans’ city leaders did almost nothing to evacuate the portion of the population with no transportation. In failing to follow their own evacuation plan, these officials did little to pre-position food, water and personnel to deal with the aftermath. I was surprised Sunday to watch Tim Russert, on his show "Meet the Press," tear into Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff. During his encounter with Chertoff, Russert did not suggest once that local government had any role in dealing with the disaster. Russert also asked for Chertoff’s resignation. It wasn’t until after the first 29 minutes of his show — 29 minutes — that Russert raised the question of local responsibility. And when he did so with Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard, he did so in a passing way. Broussard brushed off his question with a non-answer. Broussard began his interview claiming that the nation had "abandoned" New Orleans. That is nonsense and a lie. Broussard, who was never identified by "Meet the Press" as a Democrat, spent much of his time attacking the Bush administration, as has Democratic New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin. Broussard then ended his performance as he collapsed in tears with a demand: "For God’s sake, just shut up and send us somebody!" His tears didn’t wash with me. My sympathies lie with the tens of thousands of people who have suffered or died because local officials like Broussard, Mayor Nagin and Governor Kathleen Blanco, also a Democrat, failed monumentally at their jobs. As former New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial told Russert, the disaster in New Orleans was "foreseeable." In fact, New Orleans has long known that such a disaster could take place if a major hurricane hit the city. The municipality even prepared its own "City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." The plan makes it evident that New Orleans knew that evacuation of the civilian population was the primary responsibility of the city — not the federal government. The city plan acknowledges its responsibility in the document: "As established by the City of New Orleans Charter, the government has jurisdiction and responsibility in disaster response. City government shall coordinate its efforts through the Office of Emergency Preparedness." The city document also makes clear that decisions involving a proper and orderly evacuation lie with the governor, mayor and local authorities. Nowhere is the president or federal government even mentioned: "The authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane is conferred to the Governor by Louisiana Statute. The Governor is granted the power to direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from a stricken or threatened area within the State, if he deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other disaster mitigation, response or recovery. The same power to order an evacuation conferred upon the Governor is also delegated to each political subdivision of the State by Executive Order. This authority empowers the chief elected official of New Orleans, the Mayor of New Orleans, to order the evacuation of the parish residents threatened by an approaching hurricane." It is clear the city also recognized that it would need to move large portions of its population, and it would need to prepare for such an eventuality: "The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. Those evacuated will be directed to temporary sheltering and feeding facilities as needed. When specific routes of progress are required, evacuees will be directed to those routes. Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed … "Evacuation procedures for small scale and localized evacuations are conducted per the SOPs of the New Orleans Fire Department and the New Orleans Police Department. However, due to the sheer size and number of persons to be evacuated, should a major tropical weather system or other catastrophic event threaten or impact the area, specifically directed long range planning and coordination of resources and responsibilities efforts must be undertaken." [You can read New Orleans' Emergency Plan for hurricanes at its Web site: http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26] The city’s plan also specifically called for the use of city-owned buses and school buses to evacuate the population. These were apparently never deployed, though the Parish of Plaquemines just south of the city evacuated its population using school buses. The plan, written well before Katrina was even a teardrop in God’s eye, was obviously never heeded or implemented by local leaders. But why should the New Orleans mayor and Governor Blanco take responsibility when they can blame George Bush and the Republicans in Washington? With congressional elections fast approaching, Democrats who are out of power in every branch of the federal government know they need to change the tide quickly. They have apparently seized on the Katrina disaster to harm the president politically. Criticism of the federal government’s response is fair and warranted. But putting full responsibility for this disaster on the Bush administration is way over the top. Primary responsibility for this disaster remains with local officials like Nagin and Blanco, not President Bush.

Response:

The Real News The following is the result of an interview I just conducted via cell phone with a New Orleans citizen stranded at the Convention Center. I don’t know what you’re hearing in the mainstream media or in the press conferences from the city and state officials, but here is the truth: "Bigfoot" is a bar manager and DJ on Bourbon Street, and is a local personality and icon in the city. He is a lifelong resident of the city, born and raised. He rode out the storm itself in the Iberville Projects because he knew he would be above any flood waters. Here is his story as told to me moments ago. I took notes while he talked and then I asked some questions: Three days ago, police and national guard troops told citizens to head toward the Crescent City Connection Bridge to await transportation out of the area. The citizens trekked over to the Convention Center and waited for the buses which they were told would take them to Houston or Alabama or somewhere else, out of this area. It’s been 3 days, and the buses have yet to appear. Although obviously he has no exact count, he estimates more than 10,000 people are packed into and around and outside the convention center still waiting for the buses. They had no food, no water, and no medicine for the last three days, until today, when the National Guard drove over the bridge above them, and tossed out supplies over the side crashing down to the ground below. Much of the supplies were destroyed from the drop. Many people tried to catch the supplies to protect them before they hit the ground. Some offered to walk all the way around up the bridge and bring the supplies down, but any attempt to approach the police or national guard resulted in weapons being aimed at them. There are many infants and elderly people among them, as well as many people who were injured jumping out of windows to escape flood water and the like — all of them in dire straights. Any attempt to flag down police results in being told to get away at gunpoint. Hour after hour they watch buses pass by filled with people from other areas. Tensions are very high, and there has been at least one murder and several fights. 8 or 9 dead people have been stored in a freezer in the area, and 2 of these dead people are kids. The people are so desperate that they’re doing anything they can think of to impress the authorities enough to bring some buses. These things include standing in single file lines with the eldery in front, women and children next; sweeping up the area and cleaning the windows and anything else that would show the people are not barbarians. The buses never stop. Before the supplies were pitched off the bridge today, people had to break into buildings in the area to try to find food and water for their families. There was not enough. This spurred many families to break into cars to try to escape the city. There was no police response to the auto thefts until the mob reached the rich area — Saulet Condos — once they tried to get cars from there… well then the whole swat teams began showing up with rifles pointed. Snipers got on the roof and told people to get back. He reports that the conditions are horrendous. Heat, mosquitoes and utter misery. The smell, he says, is "horrific." He says it’s the slowest mandatory evacuation ever, and he wants to know why they were told to go to the Convention Center area in the first place; furthermore, he reports that many of them with cell phones have contacts willing to come rescue them, but people are not being allowed through to pick them up.

Response:

Dear George, I was thrilled to see that your Rovian rehabilitation is underway. What a great photo-op tour of the gulf coast!  You had it all together:  the swagger, brows creased with concern, the feigning of attention as you met with victims and officials. I have a few minor suggestions that would put the frosting on the cake.  Hug as many victims as you can, no matter how badly they stink. Occasionally wipe your hand across your cheek as if you were brushing away a tear.   I know this is a challenge, but if your voice could choke with emotion while making a statement, people might think you actually care. I assume Karl dragged you over the coals about jokes and wisecracks. The comment that draws a laugh in the country club locker room just doesn’t play well when surrounded by death and destruction.  Thank God, there were no more references to your party-hearty days in Houston.  Reformed drunks don’t reminisce. We’ve got to think wardrobe on your next tour.  A great photo-op would be you in a bright orange survival suit tooling around New Orleans in a Coast Guard helicopter.  The sight of you reaching out to help a survivor out of a rescue basket would be a real crowd-pleaser. You’ve got a lot of things going for you, big guy.  Let Karl handle everything and history will remember you as the savior of Hurricane Katrina.  Pigeons will be more than happy to decorate the statue the grateful citizens of New Orleans erect in your honor once the city is transformed into an unending sea of shopping malls and condos. Your admirer, Belacqua Jones

Response:

I can’t do anything about what Louisiana or New Orleans officials did or didn’t do and wouldn’t be the least bit surprised of their performances were substandard.  My sole concern in this matter as an American citizen who resides elsewhere is the performance of my federal government in a crisis situation, because that performance affects all of us. Moreover, your headline is nonsense — if in fact what you call "Bush-bashing" actually was "back-firing" you wouldn’t have typed a word about it.  After all, it would be idiotic to interrupt ones perceived opponent(s) in the process of making a mistake! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Looks like Bruce Morgen has failed for the upteenth time. What he >didn’t post and doesn’t want you to know: >Don’t Blame Bush for Katrina >Christopher Ruddy >Monday, Sept. 5, 2005 >George Bush and the federal government are not to blame for the >disaster we have witnessed in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. >In fact, the primary responsibility for the disaster response lies >with New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco >and other local officials. >Yet leading Democrats and their allies in the major media are clearly >using this disaster for political purposes and ignoring one obvious >fact. >This fact — which needs to be repeated and remembered — is that in >our country, state and local governments have primary responsibility >in dealing with local disasters. >The founding fathers devised a federal system of government — one >that has served us remarkably well through great disasters that have >befallen America over more than two centuries. >But if we believe the major TV networks, George Bush, FEMA and the >Republicans in Congress are all to blame for the current nightmare. >Let’s remember that FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, was >created only in 1979. It was formed to coordinate and focus federal >response to major disasters — to "assist" local and state >governments. >Common sense suggests that local and state governments are best able >to prepare and plan for local disasters. >Is a Washington bureaucrat better suited to prepare for an earthquake >in San Francisco, a hurricane in Florida, or a terrorist act in New >York? >After the Sept. 11 attacks against the World Trade Center, no one >suggested that the Bush administration should have been responsible >for New York’s disaster response or that federal agents should have >been involved in the rescue of those trapped in the buildings. >Last year, four major hurricanes slammed into Florida. Governor Jeb >Bush led the disaster response and did a remarkable job, with nothing >happening like what we have seen in New Orleans. >The primary response in disasters has always come from local >communities and state governments. >First responders and the manpower to deal with emergencies come from >local communities: police, fire and medical. Under our federal system, >these local departments answer to local authorities, not those in >Washington. These first responders are not even under federal control, >nor do they have to follow federal orders. >In addition to local responders, every state in the Union has a >National Guard. >State National Guards answer first to the governor of each state, not >to the president. The National Guard exists not to defend one state >from an invasion by another state, but primarily for emergencies like >the one we have witnessed in New Orleans and in other areas impacted >by Katrina. >(See: >http://www.arng.army.mil/about_us/organization/command_structure.asp) >Tim Russert and the Blame Game >The media would have you believe that this disaster was worsened by a >slow response from President Bush and his administration, though the >primary responsibility for disaster response has always been with >local and state governments. >It is true that federal response was not as fast as it could have >been. The president himself has acknowledged that fact. >But the press has focused on the first 48 hours of federal response, >not uttering a word about the fact that New Orleans had 48 hours of >warning that a major Category 4 or 5 would make landfall near the >city, yet local officials apparently did little to prepare. >Obviously, Gov. Blanco did not effectively deploy her state’s National >Guard. >And New Orleans’ city leaders did almost nothing to evacuate the >portion of the population with no transportation. In failing to follow >their own evacuation plan, these officials did little to pre-position >food, water and personnel to deal with the aftermath. >I was surprised Sunday to watch Tim Russert, on his show "Meet the >Press," tear into Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff. During his >encounter with Chertoff, Russert did not suggest once that local >government had any role in dealing with the disaster. Russert also >asked for Chertoff’s resignation. >It wasn’t until after the first 29 minutes of his show — 29 minutes >– that Russert raised the question of local responsibility. And when >he did so with Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard, he did so >in a passing way. Broussard brushed off his question with a >non-answer. >Broussard began his interview claiming that the nation had "abandoned" >New Orleans. >That is nonsense and a lie. >Broussard, who was never identified by "Meet the Press" as a Democrat, >spent much of his time attacking the Bush administration, as has >Democratic New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin. >Broussard then ended his performance as he collapsed in tears with a >demand: "For God’s sake, just shut up and send us somebody!" >His tears didn’t wash with me. My sympathies lie with the tens of >thousands of people who have suffered or died because local officials >like Broussard, Mayor Nagin and Governor Kathleen Blanco, also a >Democrat, failed monumentally at their jobs. >As former New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial told Russert, the disaster in >New Orleans was "foreseeable." >In fact, New Orleans has long known that such a disaster could take >place if a major hurricane hit the city. >The municipality even prepared its own "City of New Orleans >Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." >The plan makes it evident that New Orleans knew that evacuation of the >civilian population was the primary responsibility of the city — not >the federal government. >The city plan acknowledges its responsibility in the document: >"As established by the City of New Orleans Charter, the government has >jurisdiction and responsibility in disaster response. City government >shall coordinate its efforts through the Office of Emergency >Preparedness." >The city document also makes clear that decisions involving a proper >and orderly evacuation lie with the governor, mayor and local >authorities. Nowhere is the president or federal government even >mentioned: >"The authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an >approaching hurricane is conferred to the Governor by Louisiana >Statute. The Governor is granted the power to direct and compel the >evacuation of all or part of the population from a stricken or >threatened area within the State, if he deems this action necessary >for the preservation of life or other disaster mitigation, response or >recovery. The same power to order an evacuation conferred upon the >Governor is also delegated to each political subdivision of the State >by Executive Order. This authority empowers the chief elected official >of New Orleans, the Mayor of New Orleans, to order the evacuation of >the parish residents threatened by an approaching hurricane." >It is clear the city also recognized that it would need to move large >portions of its population, and it would need to prepare for such an >eventuality: >"The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to >quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. Those evacuated will be >directed to temporary sheltering and feeding facilities as needed. >When specific routes of progress are required, evacuees will be >directed to those routes. Special arrangements will be made to >evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require >specific life saving assistance. Additional personnel will be >recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed … >"Evacuation procedures for small scale and localized evacuations are >conducted per the SOPs of the New Orleans Fire Department and the New >Orleans Police Department. However, due to the sheer size and number >of persons to be evacuated, should a major tropical weather system or >other catastrophic event threaten or impact the area, specifically >directed long range planning and coordination of resources and >responsibilities efforts must be undertaken." >[You can read New Orleans' Emergency Plan for hurricanes at its Web >site: http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26] >The city’s plan also specifically called for the use of city-owned >buses and school buses to evacuate the population. These were >apparently never deployed, though the Parish of Plaquemines just south >of the city evacuated its population using school buses. >The plan, written well before Katrina was even a teardrop in God’s >eye, was obviously never heeded or implemented by local leaders. >But why should the New Orleans mayor and Governor Blanco take >responsibility when they can blame George Bush and the Republicans in >Washington? >With congressional elections fast approaching, Democrats who are out >of power in every branch of the federal government know they need to >change the tide quickly. >They have apparently seized on the Katrina disaster to harm the >president politically. >Criticism of the federal government’s response is fair and warranted. >But putting full responsibility for this disaster on the Bush >administration is way over the top. >Primary responsibility for this

… read more »

Response:

> The following is the result of an interview I just conducted

YOU did not conduct an interview with ANYBODY. YOU are a liar and a THIEF. Lord Valve American

Response:

> > The following is the result of an interview I just conducted > YOU did not conduct an interview with ANYBODY. > YOU are a liar and a THIEF. > Lord Valve > American

you’re so funny.

Response:

Christopher Ruddy is a right-wing spin meister.  Who cares what he has to say? Hopefully the Democrat’s will make preparedness an issue in 2006 and win some votes.  If they don’t, then they deserve to loose. Hillary was on the ball this morning & asking the right questions.  The fact is that FEMA has been screwed up, and we’ve lost site that natural disasters are usually worse than terrorists.  Hopefully, it will get fixed. Mr Soul

Response:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1476130/posts this was posted elsewhere on the net. I am disappointed you didn’t locate Bigfoot yourself LV. I do not know the politics of MGNO but his observations from day one of the storm hitting through today are amazing. He actually situated a live cam on a hotel where folks were looting and doing so openly. He also got their plate number. Score one for the good guys. His blog gives an insight rarely spoken of, sharing how it is he can offer this site to the rest of us. http://williambowles.info/no/no_interview.html Here this’ll make yiou mad http://williambowles.info/index.html Nothing, I think illustrates the insanity of the ‘war on terror’ than the aftermath of the hurricane that hit the Gulf states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. Some years ago I travelled from New Orleans to Pensacola in Florida with a friend, stopping off in the towns of Gulfport and Biloxi along the way to hang out with friends. Both towns have been totally wiped out by Hurricane Katrina. Most of the houses are made of ‘ticky-tacky’ and occupied largely by working class folks, many of whom are Black and which stand on land barely a few feet above sea level. It’s worth noting the following facts about Bush’s America in the light of the billions being spent on the invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan: In 2001, FEMA warned that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S. But the Bush administration cut New Orleans flood control funding by 44 percent to pay for the Iraq war. A year ago the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposed to study how New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken… [B]y 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. ‘No One Can Say they Didn’t See it Coming’, By Sidney Blumenthal Adding to the scale of disaster has been Bush’s policy of unleashing commercial land development on the best protection New Orleans had against hurricanes, the wetlands, which according to a report prepared by four environmental groups stated …that without wetlands protection New Orleans could be devastated by an ordinary, much less a Category 4 or 5, hurricane. "There’s no way to describe how mindless a policy that is when it comes to wetlands protection," said one of the report’s authors. The chairman of the White House’s Council on Environmental Quality dismissed the study as "highly questionable," and boasted, "Everybody loves what we’re doing." Everybody that is except the hundreds of thousands of people whose lives have been devastated, not so much by a ‘natural’ disaster but by the twin assaults of global warming and a policy of waging war on the planet and neglecting to invest in essential services in locations like New Orleans. Worse still is the fact that the corporate press has completely ignored the criminal neglect of the Bush government’s cuts that have been the main contributory factor to New Orleans being effectively wiped out. The main breech in the levee or dyke, two blocks long at 17th Street Canal, that until now stopped the massive Lake Pontchartrain from draining into New Orleans, has long been identified as a disaster waiting to happen Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA [Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project] dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security – coming at the same time as federal tax cuts – was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars. It should also be pointed out that this area, Crescent City which is ten feet below the level of the lake is a poor, working class neighbourhood with some of it now under as much as 20 feet of water. Some experts are predicting that unless the levee is repaired, like real soon, Lake Pontchartrain will continue to drain out until much of Crescent City disappears. The rising tide may not stop until it’s level with the massive lake. – ‘When the levee breaks’ Louisiana is one of the poorest states in the Union and Bush’s tax cuts, which benefit only the rich, have impacted the worst on states like Louisiana. The question that has to be asked is why, when millions of ordinary Americans have suffered so much under a Bush presidency from the collapse of public services through to the rising levels of unemployment, they nevertheless continue to vote in characters like Bush (vote rigging aside)? Why, when it is so obvious that Bush represents a predator class of weapons manufacturers, oil/energy cartels, banking/financial monopolies and media/IT corporations, that millions of ordinary Americans nevertheless are willing to tolerate such cynical and murderous politicians as Bush and here in the UK, his slavish toady, Tony Blair? However, the more observant reader will I hope have noticed a pattern to the events of recent years that reveals the real objectives of the ruling political classes of the US and the UK and the economic class they represent. There are three major planks to US/UK imperial policy: Guaranteeing and extending a continued flow of the key strategic materials needed to safeguard the interests of capital(ism) and of course, unimpeded access to the world’s markets for their products Avoiding at all costs having to deal with the resultant threat to the global environment that these policies have brought about and where possible, transfer the onus of (hopefully and vainly) dealing with it to the developing world The creation of an entirely fictitious threat to ‘civilisation’ that is used to justify points 1 and 2 Thus, the recent G8 summit that in theory at least, dealt with points 1 and 2 although couched in different terminology, ie poverty/’fair trade’ and climate change that was ever so conveniently drowned out by the events of 7/7 and 21/7, ably assisted of course by its handmaiden, the corporate and state-run press that papered over the underlying causes with all the talk about ‘corruption’ and went to great lengths to portray Blair as being totally committed to reversing climate change, in spite of the fact, that the Labour government’s policies actually do virtually nothing to reverse global warming. Any analysis of the major events that have occupied the corporate and state-run media shows that they have in their various ways been forced to deal with these issues not only because, like Iraq or now Hurricane Katrina, they are unavoidable, but because of a recognition by the public that these are issues that do in fact, concern them. The objective therefore, has been to present these key issues in ways that deflects attention away from the real causes of the crisis that confronts us, namely an out of control imperialism, that is oblivious and/or unconcerned about the consequences of its actions. It is perhaps this last aspect of the current situation that is the most frightening for many of us, as unlike previous catastrophes brought about the policies of Western imperialism, which although unimaginably destructive, have not threatened the entire planet with destruction (‘merely’ increasingly large swathes of it). One way of presenting these events so as to mask the real causes is to simply omit the key elements, so for example, BBC ‘news’ coverage of Hurricane Katrina has not mentioned any of the extremely relevant context which I have mentioned above, nor, aside from one brief reference, has it mentioned the fact that due to the occupation of Iraq, almost two-thirds of the Louisiana National Guard are otherwise occupied in bringing ‘democracy’ to Iraq rather than assisting the mostly poor victims of the hurricane trapped in the crumbling infrastructure of New Orleans. And the same applies to the coming (and related) climate catastrophe as the latest MediaLens piece illustrates so clearly, namely the melting of the Siberian permafrost, an event that has been entirely airbrushed out of the news and for obvious reasons as the effects are so catastrophic as to in all likelihood, ‘tip the balance’. Predictions are that in as little as ten years from now, we could be on the slide into global catastrophe. Earlier this month, New Scientist reported the astonishing news that the world’s largest frozen peat bog, comprising an area the size of France and Germany combined, was melting. According to researchers who have been studying the permafrost of western Siberia, the bog could unleash billions of tonnes of methane, a greenhouse gas twenty times as potent as carbon dioxide, into the atmosphere. If this were to happen, the consequences for the climate system, and for humanity, would be appalling. (Fred Pearce, ‘Climate warning as Siberia melts,’ New Scientist, August 13, 2005) And as the MediaLens report says …none of this is allowed to divert media managers from faithfully serving the cause of business as usual. Look at the Guardian newspaper, for example. Less than two weeks after the shocking news of the melting Siberian permafrost, this custodian of liberalism was waxing lyrical over "buoyant corporation tax receipts" and the US "defy[ing] economic gravity"; and was recklessly calling for "stronger world growth". This, the reader was assured, "would be very welcome in Britain." … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Christopher Ruddy is a right-wing spin meister.  Who cares what he has > to say? > Hopefully the Democrat’s will make preparedness an issue in 2006 and > win some votes.  If they don’t, then they deserve to loose. > Hillary was on the ball this morning & asking the right questions.  The > fact is that FEMA has been screwed up, and we’ve lost site that natural > disasters are usually worse than terrorists.  Hopefully, it will get > fixed. > Mr Soul

Response:

I don’t suppose you’ve noticed that your initials are the same as Really Stupid.. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

>> The following is the result of an interview I just conducted >YOU did not conduct an interview with ANYBODY.

That’s a pretty broad accusation. I’m sure you could prove it upon request, though… The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

>>> The following is the result of an interview I just conducted >YOU did not conduct an interview with ANYBODY. >That’s a pretty broad accusation. I’m sure you could >prove it upon request, though… >The Repair Guy >http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

What LV means is she didn’t interview him, the grand POO-bah. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

LV:  Flaaarrrrppp! LV’sFC:  Boss, did you get enough sleep?  Try again!

Response:

>>YOU did not conduct an interview with ANYBODY. >That’s a pretty broad accusation. I’m sure you could >prove it upon request, though…

[any evidence would go here...] The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Real News > The following is the result of an interview I just conducted via cell > phone with a New Orleans citizen stranded at the Convention Center. I > don’t know what you’re hearing in the mainstream media or in the press > conferences from the city and state officials, but here is the truth: > "Bigfoot" is a bar manager and DJ on Bourbon Street, and is a local > personality and icon in the city. He is a lifelong resident of the > city, born and raised. He rode out the storm itself in the Iberville > Projects because he knew he would be above any flood waters. Here is > his story as told to me moments ago. I took notes while he talked and > then I asked some questions: > Three days ago, police and national guard troops told citizens to head > toward the Crescent City Connection Bridge to await transportation out > of the area. The citizens trekked over to the Convention Center and > waited for the buses which they were told would take them to Houston or > Alabama or somewhere else, out of this area. > It’s been 3 days, and the buses have yet to appear. > Although obviously he has no exact count, he estimates more than 10,000 > people are packed into and around and outside the convention center > still waiting for the buses. They had no food, no water, and no > medicine for the last three days, until today, when the National Guard > drove over the bridge above them, and tossed out supplies over the side > crashing down to the ground below. Much of the supplies were destroyed > from the drop. Many people tried to catch the supplies to protect them > before they hit the ground. Some offered to walk all the way around up > the bridge and bring the supplies down, but any attempt to approach the > police or national guard resulted in weapons being aimed at them. > There are many infants and elderly people among them, as well as many > people who were injured jumping out of windows to escape flood water > and the like — all of them in dire straights. > Any attempt to flag down police results in being told to get away at > gunpoint. Hour after hour they watch buses pass by filled with people > from other areas. Tensions are very high, and there has been at least > one murder and several fights. 8 or 9 dead people have been stored in a > freezer in the area, and 2 of these dead people are kids. > The people are so desperate that they’re doing anything they can think > of to impress the authorities enough to bring some buses. These things > include standing in single file lines with the eldery in front, women > and children next; sweeping up the area and cleaning the windows and > anything else that would show the people are not barbarians. > The buses never stop. > Before the supplies were pitched off the bridge today, people had to > break into buildings in the area to try to find food and water for > their families. There was not enough. This spurred many families to > break into cars to try to escape the city. There was no police response > to the auto thefts until the mob reached the rich area — Saulet Condos > — once they tried to get cars from there… well then the whole swat > teams began showing up with rifles pointed. Snipers got on the roof and > told people to get back. > He reports that the conditions are horrendous. Heat, mosquitoes and > utter misery. The smell, he says, is "horrific." > He says it’s the slowest mandatory evacuation ever, and he wants to > know why they were told to go to the Convention Center area in the > first place; furthermore, he reports that many of them with cell phones > have contacts willing to come rescue them, but people are not being > allowed through to pick them up.

Well, it’s obvious that they did not follow instructions to go to the Crescent City Connection Bridge but went to the Convention Center instead.

Response:

> The Real News > The following is the result of an interview I just conducted via cell > phone with a New Orleans citizen stranded at the Convention Center.

(snip)… PLAGARIST !!

Response:

http://www.pollkatz.homestead.com/files/pollkatzmainGRAPHICS_8911_ima…

Response:

> > The Real News > The following is the result of an interview I just conducted via cell > phone with a New Orleans citizen stranded at the Convention Center. > (snip)… > PLAGARIST !!

source is given above btw – you’re copying Mr. LV..

Response:

LV:  Plort! LV’sFC:  Got it right here, boss.  More?

Response:

Pew has issued their latest poll and it seems to echo the CBS and Zogby polls from earlier today. Bush approval is 40% approve, 52% disapprove, propped up pretty much by whites in the South. Bush handling of Katrina: 67% say he could have done better. Big racial divide on how response to hurricane is viewed. Gas prices are also a huge issue.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > The Real News > > The following is the result of an interview I just conducted via cell > > phone with a New Orleans citizen stranded at the Convention Center. > (snip)… > PLAGARIST !! > source is given above > btw – you’re copying Mr. LV..

RIGHT  !!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

LV:  Sssshhhhhhhhppppppllllaaaaarrrrrrbbbbbb! LV’sFC:  Got it, boss.  Hey, this smells familiar.  More?

Response:

and?

Response:

            Font Size:       Breaks in the Levee Logic             By Duane D. Freese  Published   09/02/2005 The news and opinion spin cycle is moving faster than the winds of a category 4 hurricane. Barely have we had the opportunity to feel denial about the terrible tragedy, feel sympathy for victims and begin lending our support than we’ve leapt to the stage of recrimination: Who’s to blame? And the rush to judgment is running ahead of appropriate investigation and facts. Will Bunch, a senior writer at the Philadelphia Daily News, raised the question "Did the New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen?" He quoted Louisiana officials and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for the New Orleans area in old Tiimes-Picayune’s stories complaining about cuts by the Bush administration in federal funding for levees and flood protection, particularly ACE’s Alfred Naomi, stating in June 2004: "The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything is sinking, and if we don’t get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can’t stay ahead of the settlement.  The problem that we have isn’t that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can’t raise them." The New York Times, in its lead editorial Thursday titled "Waiting for a Leader," churlishly went after President Bush for his first speech which it called terrible. It went on to pretend it knew what New Orleans’ problem was — a lack of federal funding. Specifically it called for the House to restore $70 million in funds for the levees next year. The Washington Post, in an editorial that talked about not casting blame now, nonetheless couldn’t resist casting some, saying the "president’s most recent budgets have actually proposed reducing funding for flood prevention in the New Orleans area, and the administration has long ignored Louisiana politicians’ request for more help in protecting their fragile coast." USA Today did a better job in a pair of edits — one on the disaster response and one on the energy supply — by recognizing that the state and local government had a roll in building Louisiana’s infrastructure. On energy, it even went so far as to say some things some anti-oil groups hate to hear — how obstructionists to development of new refineries, offshore and Alaskan energy supplies share the blame for the nation’s reliance on Gulf Coast supplies. But it, too, got caught up in the drumbeat about the levees, arguing: "[P]eople living along the Gulf Coast have grown up hearing about what could happen if the ‘big one’ hit the region. Yet the levees weren’t raised or strengthened sufficiently to prevent flooding. Initial plans for evacuating the city and ensuring civil order were haphazard at best." Indeed, if editorial writers had a comment to make it was to say something about the levees. And why not? The levees broke, didn’t they? That’s what helped mess up the rescue effort, didn’t it? And there were cuts in federal help, weren’t there? The answers to all these questions are yes. But, the fact is, they miss an important point, which The New York Times editorialists might have discovered had they read their own news story by Andrew Revkin and Christopher Drew. The reporters quoted Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, about how surprising it was that the break in the levee was "a section that was just upgraded." "It did not have an earthen levee," he told them. "It had a vertical concrete wall several feet thick." Worse for the editorial writers were statements by the chief engineer of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Lt. Gen Carl Strock: "I don’t see that the level of funding was really a contributing factor in this case. Had this project been fully complete, it is my opinion that based on the intensity of this storm that the flooding of the business district and the French Quarter would have still taken place." The reason: the funding would only have completed an upgrade of the levees to a protect against a level 3 hurricane. Katrina was a level 4 plus. And the reasons for this goes back decades. Since the 1930s, when levee building began in earnest, Louisiana has lost a million acres of its coastal wetlands, and faces the loss of another 640,000 additional acres — an area the size of Rhode Island — by 2050. A new study based on satellite measurement released in May found that the wetlands area was sinking at a half-inch to two-inches a year as of 1995, or up to more than a 1.5 feet a decade. "If subsidence continues and/or sea level rises and human action fails to take place, the entire coast will be inundated," Roy Dokka of the Louisiana Spatial Reference Center at Louisiana State University and an author of the study noted in July. And he went on in a Times-Picayune piece that columnist Bunch apparently failed to examine: "The current plans to save the coast are focused on fixing wetlands, which is incredibly important, but the problem is that subsidence is affecting the entire coast. We need to combine those plans with regional hurricane levees and sand shoals. We have to find some way to protect the people and valuable infrastructure we have on the coast." This echoes a point that was raised by the White House Office of Management and Budget in a review of the Corps of Engineers levee and flood work back in 2003. It noted that while the Corps managed projects that reduced flood damage to specific areas, annual flood damages to the nation were increasing. As such, it wanted the Corps — though well-managed — to broaden its approach by coordinating with federal flood mitigation efforts — to be "more pro-active in preventing flood risks rather than reacting to them." The regional Corps head so often quoted by the media himself said in 2003 that a project to protect the city from a category 4 or 5 storm would take 30 years to complete, with the feasibility study alone costing $8 million and taking six years to complete. At the time he opined, "Hopefully we won’t have a major storm before then." As for the $14 billion plan called Coastal 2050 for wetlands restoration that Louisiana politicians have been pushing for the last two years for the federal government to provide a stream of funds — up to 65% of the cost —   some experts say it was only a stop-gap. "We are not going to stop marsh loss. Subsidence is too dominant," James Coleman, a professor of coastal studies at Louisiana State University, told the Times Picayune a few years ago. Coastal restoration "is a temporary fix in terms of geological time. You will see results of massive coastal restorations in our lifetime, but in the long run they are also going to go." Indeed, those interested in getting a taste of the complexity of New Orleans situation, a good place to start is to read "The Creeping Storm" by Greg Brouer in the June 2003 Civil Engineering Magazine: "During the past 40 years, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has spent hundreds of millions of dollars constructing a barrier around the low-lying city of New Orleans to protect it from hurricanes. But is the system high enough? And can any defense ultimately protect a city that is perpetually sinking — in some areas at a rate of half an inch (editor’s note: Or up to 2 inches) per year?" We know the answer to the first question now — obviously not. The answer to the second question will require more investigation. It would be nice if some editorial writers would perform a little more. Snap judgments in this situation are worse than no judgment at all. http://www.techcentralstation.com/090205F.html begin 666 font-size2.gif ` end

Response:

Funding cuts led way to lesser levees – http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-050831corps-story,…. WASHINGTON — Despite continuous warnings that a catastrophic hurricane could hit New Orleans, the Bush administration and Congress in recent years have repeatedly cut funding for hurricane preparation and flood control. The cuts have delayed construction of levees around the city and stymied an ambitious project to improve drainage in New Orleans’ neighborhoods. For instance, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers requested $27 million for this fiscal year to pay for hurricane protection projects around Lake Pontchartrain. The Bush administration countered with $3.9 million, and Congress eventually provided $5.7 million, according to figures provided by the office of U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.). Because of the budget cuts, which were caused in part by the rising costs of the war in Iraq, the corps delayed seven contracts that included enlarging the levees, according to corps documents. Much of the devastation in New Orleans was caused by breaches in the levees, which sent water from Lake Pontchartrain pouring into the city. Since much of the city is below sea level, the levee walls acted like the walls of a bowl that filled until as much as 80 percent of the city was under water. Similarly, the Army Corps requested $78 million for this fiscal year for projects that would improve draining and prevent flooding in New Orleans. The Bush administration’s budget provided $30 million for the projects, and Congress ultimately approved $36.5 million, according to Landrieu’s office. "I’m not saying it wouldn’t still be flooded, but I do feel that if it had been totally funded, there would be less flooding than you have," said Michael Parker, a former Republican Mississippi congressman who headed the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers from October 2001 until March 2002, when he was ousted after publicly criticizing a Bush administration proposal to cut the corps’ budget. A corps plan to shore up the levees began in 1965 and was supposed to be finished in 10 years but remains incomplete. "They’ve never put enough money in to complete it," Parker said. He complained that the corps’ budget has been regularly targeted by the White House because public works projects are perceived as pork and aren’t considered "sexy." "Go talk to the people who are suffering in New Orleans," Parker said. "Ask them, `Do they think it’s pork?’ " Joseph Suhayda, an emeritus engineering professor at Louisiana State University who has worked for the Army Corps of Engineers, said the corps simply didn’t have enough money to build the levees as high as the designs called for. "The fact that they weren’t that high was a result of lack of funding," he said, noting that part of the levee at the 17th Street Canal–where one of the breaches occurred–was 4 feet lower than the rest. "I think they could have significantly reduced the impact if they had those projects funded. If you need to spend $20 million and you spend $4 or $5 million, something’s got to give."

Response:

"Mr Soul" tried but failed to cop out for the DemocRATs again: > Funding cuts led way to lesser levees -<

Remaining lefist cop-out horsehit snipped. New Orleans has existed since the early 1700’s, bush has been in office 5 years. For the remaioning 295 or so years, how much money did the douchs bag DemocRATS (who’ve run the place sine before Andy Jackson saved their asses) put in place to reinforce the levvees? How much money dois the DemoDOUCHES allocate to reinforce the levee system when they controled Congress and all the money for 30+ years? Oh, NOTHING? How quant! No, what money they did allocate passed on to the filty leftist scum that run Loisiana and New Orleans and went to boats, houses, hookers, dope, and payoffs to mob bosses. Nice company you losers run with…..the blood’s on YOUR hands.

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blah blah I hate everybody, I wish I had my leg, it’s those fucking liberals fault I don’t.

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…looks real bad. Everybody say your prayers tonight. I know I will. Freep

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> ….looks real bad. Everybody say your prayers tonight. I know I will. > Freep

Umm. I just happen to surf past CNN .. when did this thing turn into a category 5 ? I thought it was a cat 1 or 2 last week, obviously I haven’t been paying attention.  New Orleans is *below* sea level too. They are already forecasting the worse long term damage with flooding.

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Oh, a while ago. As soon as it was over water again, it started pumping up. A lot. The water is very warm, you see. And it’s moving uncommonly slow, so it has lots of time to pick water up. Guess where all that water is going. Hoo-boy… It’s going to be a long night. Freep

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ….looks real bad. Everybody say your prayers tonight. I know I will. > Freep > Umm. I just happen to surf past CNN .. when did this thing turn into > a category 5 ? I thought it was a cat 1 or 2 last week, obviously > I haven’t been paying attention.  New Orleans is *below* sea level too. > They are already forecasting the worse long term damage with flooding.

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> Oh, a while ago. As soon as it was over water again, it started pumping up. > A lot. The water is very warm, you see. And it’s moving uncommonly slow, so > it has lots of time to pick water up. Guess where all that water is going. > Hoo-boy… It’s going to be a long night.

  Are you in the area ?   NO is TEN feet below sea level they just said.   That is a hellva pond to fill.

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> Hoo-boy… It’s going to be a long night.

My thoughts and prayers to all of those in that area. See ya, John

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No, I’m not from there; I’m in NY state… I hope most of them got out, though.  They’re saying right out in the open that no way will the levees take it — they’re made to take a Cat 3. There’s talk of a city completely under water for WEEKS. It’ll be for all intents and purposes, gone. God have mercy… At least they had plenty of warning. Freep

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh, a while ago. As soon as it was over water again, it started pumping > up. A lot. The water is very warm, you see. And it’s moving uncommonly > slow, so it has lots of time to pick water up. Guess where all that water > is going. > Hoo-boy… It’s going to be a long night. >  Are you in the area ? >  NO is TEN feet below sea level they just said. >  That is a hellva pond to fill.

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>> That is a hellva pond to fill.

Fill up your cars !   NO handles 1/3 of gas imports.   They are saying this could be a major   economic impact .. Consider the event as   losing a city .. for a long duration !!

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gas has already hit $70.00 a barrel. speculators be damned. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> That is a hellva pond to fill. > Fill up your cars ! >   NO handles 1/3 of gas imports. >   They are saying this could be a major >   economic impact .. Consider the event as >   losing a city .. for a long duration !!

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http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2005/08/28/afx2194163.html 08.28.2005, 11:03 PM TOKYO (AFX) – Crude oil prices surged to fresh record highs in Asian trading hours, with the benchmark contract rising briefly above 70 usd per barrel on worries a super storm will affect output at the Gulf of Mexico, dealers said. At 9.35 am, the benchmark New York light sweet crude oil for October delivery was trading at 69.86 usd per barrel, off a high of 70.80 usd. It closed at 66.13 usd in New York last Friday.

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> …looks real bad. Everybody say your prayers tonight. I know I will. > Freep

It ain’t good. I don’t think alot of folks realize what this storm’s power and position mean for N.O. They just finished  the pump system recently, but it could be a while before they’ll do any good. I’ve spent lots of time living and working there, and I hate to see go. It’ll still be there, but it’s gonna look a bit different.

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> > Hoo-boy… It’s going to be a long night. > My thoughts and prayers to all of those in that area. > See ya, > John

Too bad the Louisianna Guard isn’t home to help out. Unfortunately, the citizens of the state of Louisiana are about to face the full force of Katrina without the benefit of their National Guard troops to protect them. This is a direct consequence of President Bush’s bad decision to invade Iraq. Bush’s decision to fight terrorism by taking the battle "over there" is about to hit home. How much Katrina impacts the oil supply from the Gulf.  If prices at the pump spike significantly, this could further erode Bush’s support. (Yeah, I know that Bush isn’t responsible for hurricanes, regardless of how much Robertson may think God listens to him, but Americans tend not to be rational when it comes to their wallets at gas stations.)

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> > …looks real bad. Everybody say your prayers tonight. I know I will. > Freep > It ain’t good. I don’t think alot of folks realize what this > storm’s power and position mean for N.O. > They just finished  the pump system recently, but it could > be a while before they’ll do any good. I’ve spent lots of time > living and working there, and I hate to see go. It’ll still be > there, but it’s gonna look a bit different.

satellite photos here: http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/float-vis-loop.html impressive, not a pretty picture.

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>> …looks real bad. Everybody say your prayers tonight. I know I will. > Freep >It ain’t good. I don’t think alot of folks realize what this >storm’s power and position mean for N.O. >They just finished  the pump system recently, but it could >be a while before they’ll do any good. I’ve spent lots of time >living and working there, and I hate to see go. It’ll still be >there, but it’s gonna look a bit different.

My guess is that pumping systems would have very little impact on something of this scale.  Water is an incredibly powerful force, and combine it with a strong hurricane, and a city that’s below sea level… Not where I’d want to be right now. Pete — I saved your mechanical man from certain damnation. For his frail, electronic eyes had gazed upon the impenetrable! He was an unwilling beholder to the impossible!  –Dr. Orpheus

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 It’ll still be there, but it’s gonna look a bit different. To me, it looks so grim, I wonder if most of the desirable historical  buildings, etc, won’t be toast.  I live in Houston, and I’ve actually never in in N.O. proper. Close, but was in Baton Rouge.  Makes me wonder if I’ll ever see it as it once was.  It’s only a fluke of the weather fronts that that thing isn’t heading for Houston, instead of N.O.  If we didn’t have that high pressure behind us, I fully expect it would gone on in to Galveston instead of making the turn.  I’ve been in a few hurricanes, so I know what it’s like.  The last one I was in was Alicia in about ‘83?? or so, and it was 105 mph when it blew over the house. The eye came right down main street nearly. I sat in my car much of the night, listening to the radio, and watching it.  Yes, I was clear of any falling trees… :/  When the wind kicks up, all the power transformers start shorting out, and you see this weird green glow all over the sky.  That storm blew down trees all over town, and blew out many skyscraper windows from the gravel flying off the roofs. Very dangerous.  And that storm was a wimp compared to this one.  The bad part about this storm is the way it strengthened so fast towards the end. I bet many that decided to stay at home will be regretting it about daybreak or so… I hope they can find high spots to sit away from trees. I fear a 25 ft storm surge easy… With them being under sea level,  I would not want to be there unless I was in a STRONG building on a high upper level.  I fear N.O. will basically be toast for a good long while. If that storm had come to Houston, we would have been wiped out. I’m talking HUGE damage. Probably would The only thing we have going is we are at 50-100 ft…+-  We won’t drown from the storm surge. Most city dwellers die from falling trees, etc.. I’ve been listening to the usual hurricane HF nets on the ham radio, and am listening to a repeater that is linked into one of their UHF/VHF systems via the internet, and I’m hearing some of their local reports. I hope they all duck and cover. This one is about as bad as it gets.  MK

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Hoo-boy… It’s going to be a long night. > My thoughts and prayers to all of those in that area. > See ya, > John > Too bad the Louisianna Guard isn’t home to help out. Unfortunately, the > citizens of the state of Louisiana are about to face the full force of > Katrina without the benefit of their National Guard troops to protect > them. > This is a direct consequence of President Bush’s bad decision to invade > Iraq. > Bush’s decision to fight terrorism by taking the battle "over there" is > about to hit home.

Write to your representative. May national democrats pick up your line, kid. Because as everyone knows, nobody would die if a NG soldier were there to hold their hand. Go ahead, try to sell that. As I said, people ought to be kept aware of what goes on in the heads of those who purport to be an alternative to the GOP, and what they think about in times of disaster. Freep – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How much Katrina impacts the oil supply from the Gulf.  If prices at > the pump spike significantly, this could further erode Bush’s support. > (Yeah, I know that Bush isn’t responsible for hurricanes, regardless of > how much Robertson may think God listens to him, but Americans tend not > to be rational when it comes to their wallets at gas stations.)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > Hoo-boy… It’s going to be a long night. >> My thoughts and prayers to all of those in that area. >> See ya, >> John > Too bad the Louisianna Guard isn’t home to help out. Unfortunately, > the citizens of the state of Louisiana are about to face the full > force of Katrina without the benefit of their National Guard troops > to protect them. > This is a direct consequence of President Bush’s bad decision to > invade Iraq. > Bush’s decision to fight terrorism by taking the battle "over there" > is about to hit home. > Write to your representative. May national democrats pick up your > line, kid. Because as everyone knows, nobody would die if a NG soldier > were there to hold their hand. Go ahead, try to sell that. As I said, > people ought to be kept aware of what goes on in the heads of those > who purport to be an alternative to the GOP, and what they think about > in times of disaster.

The scary thing is that President Bush sent the *entire* Louisiana National Guard to Iraq — Zoot said they’re gone, that must mean they’re all gone, right?  Hard to imagine that every last soldier in any state’s National Guard would be activated and sent overseas at one time — short of something on the scale of World War II, I mean — but it must be true because Zoot says they’re not in Louisiana. Zoot, grow a brain.   — Walter Luffman    Medina, TN USA An equal opportunity annoyer

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> …looks real bad. Everybody say your prayers tonight. I know I >> will. >> Freep >It ain’t good. I don’t think alot of folks realize what this >storm’s power and position mean for N.O. >They just finished  the pump system recently, but it could >be a while before they’ll do any good. I’ve spent lots of time >living and working there, and I hate to see go. It’ll still be >there, but it’s gonna look a bit different. > My guess is that pumping systems would have very little impact on > something of this scale.  Water is an incredibly powerful force, and > combine it with a strong hurricane, and a city that’s below sea > level… > Not where I’d want to be right now.

Pete, any idea how many of the levee pumps are still operational?  Any electric pumps are probably going to be out of operation for a few days at least — and that’s assuming they’re priority items for getting electricity restored in the city.  Gas or diesel pumps may be able to run for a few days, but sooner or later they’re going to run out of fuel; with the New Orleans-area refineries out of operation, we’ll have to bring in fuel supplies from elsewhere. My heart goes out to the people in southern Louisiana, but meanwhile my own area is about to get hit with Katrina-related flooding.  We usually think of hurricanes as coastal threats, but this one may end up causing problems as far north as Ohio; and with all the moisture Katie is carrying, we could be talking about pockets of serious flooding over a big portion of the eastern U.S.  If this happens, relief and rebuilding efforts will be needed locally, meaning we’ll have less available to send to help New Orleans.  (But we’ll send help anyway, at least here in the volunteer State.) — Walter Luffman    Medina, TN USA An equal opportunity annoyer

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> > Hoo-boy… It’s going to be a long night. >>> My thoughts and prayers to all of those in that area. >>> See ya, >>> John >> Too bad the Louisianna Guard isn’t home to help out. Unfortunately, >> the citizens of the state of Louisiana are about to face the full >> force of Katrina without the benefit of their National Guard troops >> to protect them. >> This is a direct consequence of President Bush’s bad decision to >> invade Iraq. >> Bush’s decision to fight terrorism by taking the battle "over there" >> is about to hit home. > Write to your representative. May national democrats pick up your > line, kid. Because as everyone knows, nobody would die if a NG soldier > were there to hold their hand. Go ahead, try to sell that. As I said, > people ought to be kept aware of what goes on in the heads of those > who purport to be an alternative to the GOP, and what they think about > in times of disaster. > The scary thing is that President Bush sent the *entire* Louisiana > National Guard to Iraq — Zoot said they’re gone, that must mean > they’re all gone, right?  Hard to imagine that every last soldier in > any state’s National Guard would be activated and sent overseas at one > time — short of something on the scale of World War II, I mean — but > it must be true because Zoot says they’re not in Louisiana. > Zoot, grow a brain. > — > Walter Luffman    Medina, TN USA > An equal opportunity annoyer

Especially since, who do you think was screening people into the Superdome? You guessed it: The Louisiana National Guard. They must have awfully long arms to do that from Iraq, since Zoot says they’re *there*. Freep

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> This is a direct consequence of President Bush

As expected, the first dumbass to blame the hurricane and subsequent damage on President Bush is chronic complainer / serial plagarist zootwoman.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> …looks real bad. Everybody say your prayers tonight. I know I >>> will. >>> Freep >>It ain’t good. I don’t think alot of folks realize what this >>storm’s power and position mean for N.O. >>They just finished  the pump system recently, but it could >>be a while before they’ll do any good. I’ve spent lots of time >>living and working there, and I hate to see go. It’ll still be >>there, but it’s gonna look a bit different. > My guess is that pumping systems would have very little impact on > something of this scale.  Water is an incredibly powerful force, and > combine it with a strong hurricane, and a city that’s below sea > level… > Not where I’d want to be right now. >Pete, any idea how many of the levee pumps are still operational?  Any >electric pumps are probably going to be out of operation for a few days >at least — and that’s assuming they’re priority items for getting >electricity restored in the city.  Gas or diesel pumps may be able to >run for a few days, but sooner or later they’re going to run out of >fuel; with the New Orleans-area refineries out of operation, we’ll have >to bring in fuel supplies from elsewhere.

They were lucky enough not to take a direct hit. It looks like a rather huge amount of people weren’t able to get out of the city before the storm hit. I couldn’t tell you how many pumps are operational.  When I said that pumping systems would have very little impact, what was on my mind was in a worst case scenario, which fortunately, they’re not facing.  But people were saying things like the whole city might end up under 25 feet of the water.  And I was thinking… pumps? >My heart goes out to the people in southern Louisiana, but meanwhile my >own area is about to get hit with Katrina-related flooding.  We usually >think of hurricanes as coastal threats, but this one may end up causing >problems as far north as Ohio; and with all the moisture Katie is >carrying, we could be talking about pockets of serious flooding over a >big portion of the eastern U.S.  If this happens, relief and rebuilding >efforts will be needed locally, meaning we’ll have less available to >send to help New Orleans.  (But we’ll send help anyway, at least here >in the volunteer State.)

Hopefully you’ll be spared the flooding where you are.   I’m fortunate enough to live in a town way up North that’s built on a hill carved out by the glaciers.  Illinois, not *that* far north.  And the WPA built all sorts of drainage canals through the downtown during the depression era, so this town hasn’t flooded in a long time.  We have a couple canals, and a river going through our flood plains, and our water all empties into the Mississippi eventually. Pete — I saved your mechanical man from certain damnation. For his frail, electronic eyes had gazed upon the impenetrable! He was an unwilling beholder to the impossible!  –Dr. Orpheus

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from your favorite liberal newsman to hate http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript135_full.html MOYERS: Welcome to NOW. Sometimes the devil really is in the details. Consider the annual report just out from the E.P.A. on trends in air pollution. For the first time in six years, it leaves out any discussion of global warming. The White House simply doesn’t want anyone to take climate change seriously, or to connect the dots between our addiction to fossil fuels and a hotter planet. This summer, however, we may have seen a glimpse of what’s in store. Nearly half the U.S. was affected by drought during the hottest, driest season since the 1930s. And Europe had the opposite extreme: the worst floods in more than a century. Down in Louisiana’s bayou country, the water also rises. A few weeks ago, we showed you how the coastline there is disappearing into the Gulf because of human activity. We return to New Orleans tonight because if this keeps up, the streetcar named Desire could be swept away by the muddy waters of the Delta. NPR’s Daniel Zwerlding and NOW’S William Brangham have our report. DANIEL ZWERDLING: When travelers rate their favorite cities around the world, they put New Orleans near the top of the list… Cajun culture… The Mississippi…The French Quarter. But a scientist named Joe Suhayda sees a more troubling vision of this city. click on link above to read entire script.

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Well I’d have to say that Bushoviks don’t have the enovirnoment or local security issues on the front burner. http://gov.louisiana.gov/New_Stories_detail.asp?id=52 Author:By LAURA McKNIGHT and KATINA A. GAUDET Staff Writers Houma Courier EDITORIAL: Coastal Advocates Dismayed by Bush’s Opposition Tell the president what you think Gov. Kathleen Blanco released a copy of a letter to President Bush on Wednesday in which she encourages him to visit Louisiana to see the state’s coastal-erosion problems firsthand. In it, she touches on concerns that the deteriorating Louisiana coast threatens critical oil-industry infrastructure, including transportation routes and pipelines. Although budget constraints are said to be the reason for the Bush administration’s opposition, Blanco said, "please consider the far greater costs of not addressing the catastrophic coastal land loss occurring in Louisiana, land loss that puts our nation’s energy security and economic future at risk. . I urge you to schedule the visit before the Energy Bill is completed. I know that once you see what is unfolding, firsthand, the urgency my state and our nation faces will be clear." Blanco also encouraged Louisiana residents to send correspondence to 456-1111 or write The President, The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., Washington, D.C., 20500. "Repair the marshland or rebuild New Orleans." That headline ran atop a column last week in Denver’s Rocky Mountain News. It provided the newspaper’s readers with information about how to get involved in the effort to save Louisiana’s coast. Louisiana’s state and congressional leaders point to such work as proof that word is getting out that the coast is integral to national security and commerce and is especially important in protecting the area from Gulf storms. Still, state leaders are uncertain whether they are reaching the one place they must: the White House. "We’ve already jumped through these hoops," Sidney Coffee, executive assistant to Gov. Kathleen Blanco in the Office of Coastal Activities, said. "I think it’s time for this administration and this Congress to recognize what we’re up against here and that there is some federal responsibility that needs to be taken." In the past week, the state has been dealt two blows to its near-term plan to address coastal land loss. Last week, in response to the U.S. House’s approval of the 2005 Water Resources Development Act, the Bush administration recommended that Louisiana pay half the cost of its $17 billion plan to rebuild the coast. The Louisiana Coastal Area study, as it’s called, is in the House’s WRDA legislation. Similar legislation has not yet been approved by the full Senate but has passed a Senate committee. The administration cites the comprehensive Everglades restoration program and its 50 percent cost-share agreement, but Louisiana’s leaders criticized the comparison. On Monday, the administration again opposed a plan for revenue sharing with Louisiana and other coastal oil-and-gas-producing states. The opposition came in a letter from U.S. Energy Secretary Samuel W. Bodman to House and Senate members chosen to reconcile the two branches’ versions of the federal energy bill. "The administration recognizes that coastal Louisiana is an environmental resource of national significance and has worked closely with the state of Louisiana to produce a near-term coastal wetlands restoration plan to guide how the next phase of restoration projects in Louisiana will be identified, prioritized and sequenced," the policy statement says. It says, however, that the House bill does not require a sufficient cost-share by the state. HALF AND HALF "The cost-share paid by the general taxpayer for the Everglades restoration effort is 50 percent, and this should likewise be the maximum federal contribution for the Upper Mississippi River and Illinois Waterway and coastal Louisiana restoration efforts," the statement says. It would cost more than $10 billion to implement the House’s WRDA bill, make changes to existing projects and programs and pay for the increased federal cost-share on certain projects, according to the Congressional Budget Office. That would "create expectations for future appropriations that cannot be met given competing spending priorities within the overall need for spending restraint, including deficit reduction," the administration’s policy statement says. According to Louisiana’s leaders, the near-term coastal-restoration program, already scaled down from its more-comprehensive effort at the administration’s request, cannot afford to be further trimmed. ‘IT’S ABSURD’ "It’s absurd," U.S. Rep. Charlie Melancon, D-Napoleonville, said. "This is America’s Wetland. We were happy to get the WRDA bill passed, and that’s good news, but from what I understand of what the administration has said, this is not, and we’ll continue our effort to try to get the federal government to ante up and take care of the coastline like it should." U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., also disagrees with the 50-50 cost share. "The good news," Vitter added, "is that the House and Senate also disagree with it." Louisiana’s delegation has so far been successful in keeping the cost share at 65 percent federal and 35 percent state and local, he said. "I remain very focused on these coastal provisions," he said. So, too, does Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-New Orleans, spokesman Adam Sharp said. In its report on the coastal plan to Congress in January, the corps states that the 65-35 cost share is "consistent with existing law and corps policy" and is recommended by corps officers. Like state officials, Sharp said the Everglades cost share is the exception to the corps’ practice, not the rule. If the 65-35 split were the exception, Louisiana would deserve it, he said. "The president’s sharp assertion is completely overlooking the fact that Louisiana’s coastal area is a working wetlands," Sharp said. "The national impact of Louisiana’s coastal wetlands is significant. Continuing erosion would hurt the national economy and national security." Coffee agreed, saying that it would be "extremely difficult" for the state to pay half the cost. ‘APPLES TO ORANGES’ "I hate to even compare our situation and the Everglades. It’s like comparing apples to oranges. The Everglades doesn’t produce to the nation what our coast does by any stretch of the imagination, and the purpose of Everglades restoration is entirely different than ours," Coffee said. This week, in response to Bodman’s letter opposing the plan, Blanco called upon state residents to speak up, calling the Bush administration’s opposition "incomprehensible." "That this administration could actively oppose compensating the states that continue to produce so much of the nation’s energy is not just short-sighted, it’s irresponsible," said Blanco in a statement released this week. "I urge every citizen of Louisiana to write or call President Bush and tell him about the importance to the nation of our state’s coast." Blanco extended a formal invitation to the president and Bodman to visit coastal Louisiana and see "the critical infrastructure being put at greater and greater risk as these wetlands continue to vanish." U.S. Rep. Bobby Jindal, R-La., on Tuesday sent a similar offer to congressional negotiators working on the compromise energy bill, which also contains money for Louisiana’s coastal efforts. COME FLY WITH ME "I invite you all to fly over the effected areas with me in order to see the submerged foundations of houses that used to be on solid ground, the water lapping at roads that used to be protected, and the graves that now rest under water," Jindal wrote. The Senate portion of the bill would force the government to annually distribute $250 million from 2007 to 2010 among Louisiana and five other coastal energy-producing states. The money would come from federal taxes on oil produced in federal waters in the Gulf of Mexico off Louisiana’s coast. Louisiana would receive the biggest portion. The House version calls for Louisiana to receive $300 million over the next five years, rising to $1 billion a year in revenues starting in 2016. The conference committee will decide which version gets used in the Energy Bill, though Jindal said members have the latitude to decide on any amount they see fit. The committee hopes to give Bush a bill by the end of next week. http://www.jasonproject.org/jason_news/bayoublues.htm Bayou Blues: Working to Save the U.S. From The Worst Potential Oil, Gas and Fishing Crisis While Thousands Gather in New Orleans for Mardi Gras Scientists and Students Working to Save Louisiana Wetlands Marrero, LA — An impending crisis that could have a detrimental impact on the oil and gas infrastructure and fishing industry in the United States is leading scientists to investigate how to stop rapid deterioration and to start restoring marsh land in Louisiana’s southern coastal wetlands – which are losing a piece of land the size of a football field every 35 minutes.  All of this is part of an international broadcast expedition wrapping up conclusions and coming to an end in the Louisiana bayou with the JASON Foundation for Education. "The loss of Louisiana’s wetlands is the single most catastrophic environmental disaster ever to hit the continental U.S.," said Mark Schexnayder, a marine biologist with the Louisiana State University Agricultural Extension and Research Center-Sea Grant Program.  "The consequences of loosing the wetlands are far reaching and affect everyone.  Of course there are biological and ecological effects, but the biggest cost of losing the wetlands will be on oil and gas prices, causing them to rise everywhere.  The oil production rigs and natural gas pipelines in Louisiana depend on the wetlands to protect their structures from storms and hurricanes.  Without the wetlands, they are

… read more »

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> …looks real bad. Everybody say your prayers tonight. I know I will. > Freep

Kyoto not looking so bad now…..

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> > Hoo-boy… It’s going to be a long night. > My thoughts and prayers to all of those in that area. > See ya, > John > Too bad the Louisianna Guard isn’t home to help out. Unfortunately, the > citizens of the state of Louisiana are about to face the full force of > Katrina without the benefit of their National Guard troops to protect > them.

…uh, last i heard, the Louisiana NG hasn’t been issued those new "hurricane defuser rockets" yet, so about all they can do is help pick up the trash afterward. take care, paul az – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is a direct consequence of President Bush’s bad decision to invade > Iraq. > Bush’s decision to fight terrorism by taking the battle "over there" is > about to hit home. > How much Katrina impacts the oil supply from the Gulf.  If prices at > the pump spike significantly, this could further erode Bush’s support. > (Yeah, I know that Bush isn’t responsible for hurricanes, regardless of > how much Robertson may think God listens to him, but Americans tend not > to be rational when it comes to their wallets at gas stations.)

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> Well I’d have to say that Bushoviks don’t have the enovirnoment or > local security issues on the front burner.

a conservative offers a prayer for the well being of victims of disaster, and rather than join in with that prayer, you twist the thread into a political "bash bush" hit piece. you should be ashamed of your self! just because you are a liberal doesn’t mean that you have to be open minded til your brains fall out! Jeez, have a little compassion for those just hit by a natural disaster, and don’t try to turn every act of conservative compassion into a political diatribe against some guy you didn’t vote for, and are therefore mad at! grow up! paul az – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> http://gov.louisiana.gov/New_Stories_detail.asp?id=52 > Author:By LAURA McKNIGHT and KATINA A. GAUDET Staff Writers Houma > Courier > EDITORIAL: Coastal Advocates Dismayed by Bush’s Opposition > Tell the president what you think > Gov. Kathleen Blanco released a copy of a letter to President Bush on > Wednesday in which she encourages him to visit Louisiana to see the > state’s coastal-erosion problems firsthand. > In it, she touches on concerns that the deteriorating Louisiana coast > threatens critical oil-industry infrastructure, including > transportation routes and pipelines. Although budget constraints are > said to be the reason for the Bush administration’s opposition, Blanco > said, "please consider the far greater costs of not addressing the > catastrophic coastal land loss occurring in Louisiana, land loss that > puts our nation’s energy security and economic future at risk. . I urge > you to schedule the visit before the Energy Bill is completed. I know > that once you see what is unfolding, firsthand, the urgency my state > and our nation faces will be clear." > Blanco also encouraged Louisiana residents to send correspondence to > 456-1111 or write The President, The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania > Ave., Washington, D.C., 20500. > "Repair the marshland or rebuild New Orleans." > That headline ran atop a column last week in Denver’s Rocky Mountain > News. It provided the newspaper’s readers with information about how to > get involved in the effort to save Louisiana’s coast. > Louisiana’s state and congressional leaders point to such work as proof > that word is getting out that the coast is integral to national > security and commerce and is especially important in protecting the > area from Gulf storms. > Still, state leaders are uncertain whether they are reaching the one > place they must: the White House. > "We’ve already jumped through these hoops," Sidney Coffee, executive > assistant to Gov. Kathleen Blanco in the Office of Coastal Activities, > said. "I think it’s time for this administration and this Congress to > recognize what we’re up against here and that there is some federal > responsibility that needs to be taken." > In the past week, the state has been dealt two blows to its near-term > plan to address coastal land loss. > Last week, in response to the U.S. House’s approval of the 2005 Water > Resources Development Act, the Bush administration recommended that > Louisiana pay half the cost of its $17 billion plan to rebuild the > coast. > The Louisiana Coastal Area study, as it’s called, is in the House’s > WRDA legislation. Similar legislation has not yet been approved by the > full Senate but has passed a Senate committee. > The administration cites the comprehensive Everglades restoration > program and its 50 percent cost-share agreement, but Louisiana’s > leaders criticized the comparison. > On Monday, the administration again opposed a plan for revenue sharing > with Louisiana and other coastal oil-and-gas-producing states. The > opposition came in a letter from U.S. Energy Secretary Samuel W. Bodman > to House and Senate members chosen to reconcile the two branches’ > versions of the federal energy bill. > "The administration recognizes that coastal Louisiana is an > environmental resource of national significance and has worked closely > with the state of Louisiana to produce a near-term coastal wetlands > restoration plan to guide how the next phase of restoration projects in > Louisiana will be identified, prioritized and sequenced," the policy > statement says. > It says, however, that the House bill does not require a sufficient > cost-share by the state. > HALF AND HALF > "The cost-share paid by the general taxpayer for the Everglades > restoration effort is 50 percent, and this should likewise be the > maximum federal contribution for the Upper Mississippi River and > Illinois Waterway and coastal Louisiana restoration efforts," the > statement says. > It would cost more than $10 billion to implement the House’s WRDA bill, > make changes to existing projects and programs and pay for the > increased federal cost-share on certain projects, according to the > Congressional Budget Office. > That would "create expectations for future appropriations that cannot > be met given competing spending priorities within the overall need for > spending restraint, including deficit reduction," the administration’s > policy statement says. > According to Louisiana’s leaders, the near-term coastal-restoration > program, already scaled down from its more-comprehensive effort at the > administration’s request, cannot afford to be further trimmed. > ‘IT’S ABSURD’ > "It’s absurd," U.S. Rep. Charlie Melancon, D-Napoleonville, said. "This > is America’s Wetland. We were happy to get the WRDA bill passed, and > that’s good news, but from what I understand of what the administration > has said, this is not, and we’ll continue our effort to try to get the > federal government to ante up and take care of the coastline like it > should." > U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., also disagrees with the 50-50 cost > share. > "The good news," Vitter added, "is that the House and Senate also > disagree with it." > Louisiana’s delegation has so far been successful in keeping the cost > share at 65 percent federal and 35 percent state and local, he said. > "I remain very focused on these coastal provisions," he said. > So, too, does Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-New Orleans, spokesman Adam Sharp > said. > In its report on the coastal plan to Congress in January, the corps > states that the 65-35 cost share is "consistent with existing law and > corps policy" and is recommended by corps officers. > Like state officials, Sharp said the Everglades cost share is the > exception to the corps’ practice, not the rule. If the 65-35 split were > the exception, Louisiana would deserve it, he said. > "The president’s sharp assertion is completely overlooking the fact > that Louisiana’s coastal area is a working wetlands," Sharp said. "The > national impact of Louisiana’s coastal wetlands is significant. > Continuing erosion would hurt the national economy and national > security." > Coffee agreed, saying that it would be "extremely difficult" for the > state to pay half the cost. > ‘APPLES TO ORANGES’ > "I hate to even compare our situation and the Everglades. It’s like > comparing apples to oranges. The Everglades doesn’t produce to the > nation what our coast does by any stretch of the imagination, and the > purpose of Everglades restoration is entirely different than ours," > Coffee said. > This week, in response to Bodman’s letter opposing the plan, Blanco > called upon state residents to speak up, calling the Bush > administration’s opposition "incomprehensible." > "That this administration could actively oppose compensating the states > that continue to produce so much of the nation’s energy is not just > short-sighted, it’s irresponsible," said Blanco in a statement released > this week. "I urge every citizen of Louisiana to write or call > President Bush and tell him about the importance to the nation of our > state’s coast." > Blanco extended a formal invitation to the president and Bodman to > visit coastal Louisiana and see "the critical infrastructure being put > at greater and greater risk as these wetlands continue to vanish." > U.S. Rep. Bobby Jindal, R-La., on Tuesday sent a similar offer to > congressional negotiators working on the compromise energy bill, which > also contains money for Louisiana’s coastal efforts. > COME FLY WITH ME > "I invite you all to fly over the effected areas with me in order to > see the submerged foundations of houses that used to be on solid > ground, the water lapping at roads that used to be protected, and the > graves that now rest under water," Jindal wrote. > The Senate portion of the bill would force the government to annually > distribute $250 million from 2007 to 2010 among Louisiana and five > other coastal energy-producing states. The money would come from > federal taxes on oil produced in federal waters in the Gulf of Mexico > off Louisiana’s coast. Louisiana would receive the biggest portion. > The House version calls for Louisiana to receive $300 million over the > next five years, rising to $1 billion a year in revenues starting in > 2016. > The conference committee will decide which version gets used in the > Energy Bill, though Jindal said members have the latitude to decide on > any amount they see fit. The committee hopes to give Bush a bill by the > end of next week. > http://www.jasonproject.org/jason_news/bayoublues.htm > Bayou Blues: Working to Save the U.S. From The Worst Potential Oil, Gas > and Fishing Crisis > While Thousands Gather in New Orleans for Mardi Gras Scientists and > Students Working to Save Louisiana Wetlands > Marrero, LA — An impending crisis that could have a detrimental impact > on the oil and gas infrastructure and fishing industry in the United > States is leading scientists to investigate how

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It’s no real secret that the GWB administration has claimed that they don’t believe there is proof that global warming is real….and is a problem.  In fact, that was the basis for the U.S. withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol…an agreement between nations to reduce CO2 emissions. But now, the administration has quietly started looking into possible solutions to the problem of global warming…you know…the problem that isn’t….and they’re looking for methods that would not force their business buddies to change their gassy ways.  What a team they are! Here’s one of the ideas, currently being explored– A giant, 600,000 square mile orbiting mirror, that would block out part of the sun’s energy. I kid you not! You can’t make stuff this good up!  If you doubt me, go to the Popular Science website and do a search on "orbiting mirror."  It’s all there. Holy freakin’ cow! OK busheviks, that’s *your* boy.  You must be *so* proud! (big grin) Mike

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courageously avow: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->It’s no real secret that the GWB administration has claimed >that they don’t believe there is proof that global warming >is real….and is a problem.  In fact, that was the basis >for the U.S. withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol…an >agreement between nations to reduce CO2 emissions. >But now, the administration has quietly started looking into >possible solutions to the problem of global warming…you >know…the problem that isn’t….and they’re looking for >methods that would not force their business buddies to >change their gassy ways.  What a team they are! >Here’s one of the ideas, currently being explored– >A giant, 600,000 square mile orbiting mirror, that would >block out part of the sun’s energy. >I kid you not! >You can’t make stuff this good up!  If you doubt me, go to >the Popular Science website and do a search on "orbiting >mirror."  It’s all there. >Holy freakin’ cow! >OK busheviks, that’s *your* boy.  You must be *so* proud! >(big grin) >Mike

Sounds like your boys have been watching way too much Star Trek. What’s next, a Dysan’s <sp> sphere?  hehehe Sounds much like Ronnie’s Star Wars plan.  The only problem with that one was they couldn’t find a planet to beta test on. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of LV, Paul Know less, John Boy Wheaton, Clod  and the rest of the Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explantions (URINE) Former owner of Jet Ski, traded to Elvis Kabong for a half-eaten twinkie  and an old stub from a Mom & Dads concert. www.resisters.ca

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> It’s no real secret that the GWB administration has claimed that they > don’t believe there is proof that global warming

bullshit! pure and simple. > is real….and is a problem.  In fact, that was the basis for the U.S. > withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol…an agreement between nations to > reduce CO2 emissions.

gee, and i thought it was because of the HUGE pollution credit giveaway to China and India that would allow them to pollute FAR more than they do today… or… SELL their "pollution credits" to other countries for cash and other considerations. Kyoto in fact did very very little to stem pollution, and what it DID do, was to be done at the expense of the American taxpayer at many many times what it would cost if we just did it ourselves > But now, the administration has quietly started looking into possible > solutions to the problem of global warming…you know…the problem that > isn’t….and they’re looking for methods that would not force their > business buddies to change their gassy ways.  What a team they are!

they are AMERICA’S team, and we are very proud of them! but i suppose that you would not be in favor of any solution that DIDN’T crush the economies of the civilized world? > Here’s one of the ideas, currently being explored– > A giant, 600,000 square mile orbiting mirror, that would block out part of > the sun’s energy. > I kid you not!

post the link, if you have one, that says that this is what Bush wants to spend your money on. scientists explore ALL KINDS of things on the road to a solution. that doesn’t mean that anyone is wanting to spend your money on an ineffectual orbiting mirror. > You can’t make stuff this good up!  If you doubt me, go to the Popular > Science website and do a search on "orbiting mirror."  It’s all there.

no, you only make up the implications, not the underlying facts. > Holy freakin’ cow!

thats what I thought when i read your bullshit. > OK busheviks, that’s *your* boy.  You must be *so* proud!

I am. I TRULY am! > (big grin)

(no grin, just a satisfied smile) > Mike

paul az

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here’s the real problem visit here – http://lrrc3.sas.upenn.edu/popcult/cartoons/anthropo/kaypasa2.jpg Note the following: The ’scientists’ are all male, wear glasses, and are middle-aged. They wear white coats. They miss some very obvious facts, which explains why we haven’t been able to understand how dolphins communicate: They speak Spanish! The ’scientists’ are weird and maybe not very smart? (Also have bad haircuts.) Can Jackie Chan really bend iron bars? Is Paul Newman’s stomach capable of holding 50 eggs? Does that bus really have enough Speed to jump the gap? Paul I think you need to atend a few days at Open Univerity. Spend some time sharpening your analytical skills. Impress girls. Hollywood science here http://www.open2.net/science/hollywood_science/ Real science here http://www.open2.net/home.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> here’s the real problem visit here – > http://lrrc3.sas.upenn.edu/popcult/cartoons/anthropo/kaypasa2.jpg > Note the following: > The ’scientists’ are all male, wear glasses, and are middle-aged. > They wear white coats. > They miss some very obvious facts, which explains why we haven’t been > able to understand how dolphins communicate: They speak Spanish! > The ’scientists’ are weird and maybe not very smart? (Also have bad > haircuts.) > Can Jackie Chan really bend iron bars? Is Paul Newman’s stomach capable > of holding 50 eggs? Does that bus really have enough Speed to jump the > gap? > Paul I think you need to atend a few days at Open Univerity. Spend some > time sharpening your analytical skills. Impress girls. > Hollywood science here > http://www.open2.net/science/hollywood_science/ > Real science here > http://www.open2.net/home.html

hm, you didn’t address so much as a single point that I made in my original reply, AND you clipped ALL of it out of YOUR reply. THEN you suggest (obliquely) that my perception of reality is more properly served up by Hollywierd’s perception of reality. guess what? Hollyweird is all liberals like YOU. YOU are the one who should stick to questions about the size of Paul Newman’s (another liberal) stomache. I deal in reality, not the Roger Moore Hollywierd BS "documentery" type that YOU subscribe to. and by the way, not everything that Hollyweird puts out is a documetery, even if they "label" it as such. and by the way, a BBC program support site, http://www.open2.net/home.html, does NOT constitute a legitimate source of true science, and at any rate, i found NOTHING there about the Kyoto accords. YOU are the one who needs to come in out of the rain of hollywood (or BBC as the case may be) BS. Post something relevant to the discussion at hand, or else go crawl back under your rock! paul az

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put your lighter away you didn’t search http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=9583&jsp=prog_pages%2Fbigques… and you didn’t explore the hollywood science page either or you would’t be offended. Re: Movie Speed Speed was the 1994 smash hit film starring Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bullock. Keanu Reeves plays Jack Traven, an L.A.P.D. SWAT team specialist who is sent to defuse a bomb that a revenge-driven extortionist (Dennis Hopper) has planted on a crowded bus. Bullock has to maintain the velocity of the bus at 50mph (or greater) so that the bomb does not explode, killing all on board. The film is a high-octane race of suspense, non-stop action and surprise twists.   In a heart stopping, adrenalin pumping moment, the bus turns onto an uncompleted section of a freeway overpass, with a 50-foot gap in the road. Of course they leap the gap, this is Hollywood! Our Hollywood Scientists, using their unique backyard technology prove the flaws in the movie’s thesis. But what forces are at work in Speed, and how fast and at what angle does the bus have to be at to make it? How could you work this out theoretically? We decided to find out… If you watch the film, the section of the freeway they are jumping appears to be flat. It does not look like there is any kind of ramp, an angled surface, to jump off. This is a problem, why? Because vertical motion and horizontal motion are independent of each other. What does this mean? Let’s look at each one in turn. Vertical Motion (objects falling due to gravity, or aeroplanes rising, overcoming gravity). If we consider an object falling due to gravity, how long would it take to fall a set distance?   If an object falls due to gravity from rest, then it will fall at approximately , this is due to the constant pull of the earths gravity. So how fast will it be falling after 5 seconds? If speed = acceleration x time then 10 x 5 =  or 180km/hr. That is the final vertical speed, but what would the average speed have been? If you are accelerating at a constant rate (and when falling you ususally are) then the average speed would be half of the final speed so it will be . So how far would the object have fallen in 5 seconds? 25 x 5 = 125 metres. Here come the equations! http://www.open2.net/science/hollywood_science/speed_3.htm ans so on. Mirrors in space to deflect sun energy to lower earth’s temperature is a whacky idea. Planting millions of trees is not. One makes idea makes money for a certain segment one idea makes a little less money for another segment. Is there global woarming caused by human activity? One thing is for certain, the weather always changes. Is it caused by termite farts? http://www.heptune.com/farts.html, industrial emmisions, volcanic emissions, or hairspray and should we do something about it are the big questions. consider this post "There are high levels of phytate in the soybeans used to supplement animal feed. These high levels of phytate cause excessive fermentation in the animal’s stomachs producing methane. The phytate also causes elevated levels of nitrogen in the manure which causes problems for water ways due to run off. One of my current projects is to lower the amount of phytate in soybeans through advanced breeding techniques. I am also working on the amino acid complement in other feed crops to help with the nitrogen run off. Phytate is actually an anti-nutritive chemical; its digestion strips nutrients from the animal thus requiring more feed to get the same results. ETA: Half of the U.S. production of calcium carbonate goes into animal feed to help mitigate their sour stomachs." Sounds damned silly but cow farts affect our environment and they cost producers money. Acccccctually…. This is the same theory that some people have put forth to the end of the dinosaurs. High methane. FIRST UP: Seventy-six percent of Americans believe the Pillsbury doughboy is a virgin. The other 24% have a yeast infection.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> put your lighter away > you didn’t search > http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=9583&jsp=prog_pages%2Fbigques… > and you didn’t explore the hollywood science page either or you would’t > be offended. > Re: Movie Speed > Speed was the 1994 smash hit film starring Keanu Reeves and Sandra > Bullock. Keanu Reeves plays Jack Traven, an L.A.P.D. SWAT team > specialist who is sent to defuse a bomb that a revenge-driven > extortionist (Dennis Hopper) has planted on a crowded bus. Bullock has > to maintain the velocity of the bus at 50mph (or greater) so that the > bomb does not explode, killing all on board. The film is a high-octane > race of suspense, non-stop action and surprise twists.   In a heart > stopping, adrenalin pumping moment, the bus turns onto an uncompleted > section of a freeway overpass, with a 50-foot gap in the road. Of > course they leap the gap, this is Hollywood! > Our Hollywood Scientists, using their unique backyard technology prove > the flaws in the movie’s thesis. But what forces are at work in Speed, > and how fast and at what angle does the bus have to be at to make it? > How could you work this out theoretically? > We decided to find out… > If you watch the film, the section of the freeway they are jumping > appears to be flat. It does not look like there is any kind of ramp, an > angled surface, to jump off. This is a problem, why? Because vertical > motion and horizontal motion are independent of each other. What does > this mean? Let’s look at each one in turn. > Vertical Motion > (objects falling due to gravity, or aeroplanes rising, overcoming > gravity). > If we consider an object falling due to gravity, how long would it take > to fall a set distance? >  If an object falls due to gravity from rest, then it will fall at > approximately , this is due to the constant pull of the earths gravity. > So how fast will it be falling after 5 seconds? > If speed = acceleration x time then > 10 x 5 =  or 180km/hr. > That is the final vertical speed, but what would the average speed have > been? If you are accelerating at a constant rate (and when falling you > ususally are) then the average speed would be half of the final speed > so it will be . So how far would the object have fallen in 5 seconds? > 25 x 5 = 125 metres. > Here come the equations! > http://www.open2.net/science/hollywood_science/speed_3.htm > ans so on. > Mirrors in space to deflect sun energy to lower earth’s temperature is > a whacky idea. Planting millions of trees is not. One makes idea makes > money for a certain segment one idea makes a little less money for > another segment. Is there global woarming caused by human activity? One > thing is for certain, the weather always changes. Is it caused by > termite farts? http://www.heptune.com/farts.html, industrial emmisions, > volcanic emissions, > or hairspray and should we do something about it are the big questions. > consider this post > "There are high levels of phytate in the soybeans used to supplement > animal feed. These high levels of phytate cause excessive fermentation > in the animal’s stomachs producing methane. The phytate also causes > elevated levels of nitrogen in the manure which causes problems for > water ways due to run off. > One of my current projects is to lower the amount of phytate in > soybeans through advanced breeding techniques. I am also working on the > amino acid complement in other feed crops to help with the nitrogen run > off. > Phytate is actually an anti-nutritive chemical; its digestion strips > nutrients from the animal thus requiring more feed to get the same > results. > ETA: Half of the U.S. production of calcium carbonate goes into animal > feed to help mitigate their sour stomachs." > Sounds damned silly but cow farts affect our environment and they cost > producers money. > Acccccctually…. > This is the same theory that some people have put forth to the end of > the dinosaurs. High methane. > FIRST UP: Seventy-six percent of Americans believe the Pillsbury > doughboy is a virgin. The other 24% have a yeast infection.

and this has what to do with the Kyoto treaty or even the broader topic of Global Warming? you are losing it. paul az

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I do not say but I implied in the post with cartoon that scientists sometimes see the uhhh "symptoms" but miss the underlying cause because they have a result that they want or haven’t anticipated. That’s called misdiagnosis. So in that way I am listening to you but you need do to be more analytical when you deconstruct the content of a post. So….How was that not relevent to what you posted???? Anyway mirrors in space make about as much sense as humans on Mars or towing chunks of ice around the ocean to change the Ninos. Simple things can have large effects, like planting trees. I can give you one of those painful mathematical calculations to show you how many trees are needed to repair air damage per pound of carbon emission. We do have a problem and Mr. Dominate The World and Take All It’s Oil doesn’t have the answer. Selling and trading pollution credits isn’t the answer either. That’s a card trick invented by tricksters, the same guys who brought you Enron.

Response:

>I do not say but I implied in the post with cartoon that scientists > sometimes see the uhhh "symptoms" but miss the underlying cause because > they have a result that they want or haven’t anticipated. That’s called > misdiagnosis. So in that way I am listening to you but you need do to > be more analytical when you deconstruct the content of a post. > So….How was that not relevent to what you posted???? > Anyway mirrors in space make about as much sense as humans on Mars or > towing chunks of ice around the ocean to change the Ninos. Simple > things can have large effects, like planting trees. I can give you one > of those painful mathematical calculations to show you how many trees > are needed to repair air damage per pound of carbon emission.

hm, some scientist, working on his own, comes up with an idea that YOU think is stupid, so that makes it G.W.B.’s fault? how? > We do have a problem and Mr. Dominate The World and Take All It’s Oil > doesn’t have the answer. Selling and trading pollution credits isn’t > the answer either. That’s a card trick invented by tricksters, the same > guys who brought you Enron.

lol, no! trading pollution credits was brought to you by the promoters of the Kyoto Accords. that is what it says. you should check it out! That is absolutely why the U.S. did not sign up for that joke! paul az

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If *that’s* all it took to kill a neocon, e’d have been free of these chair farting phuctards years ago – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > This is the same theory that some people have put forth to the end of the dinosaurs. High methane.

Response:

> > We do have a problem and Mr. Dominate The World and Take All It’s Oil > doesn’t have the answer. Selling and trading pollution credits isn’t > the answer either. That’s a card trick invented by tricksters, the same > guys who brought you Enron. > lol, no! trading pollution credits was brought to you by the promoters of > the Kyoto Accords. that is what it says. you should check it out! That is > absolutely why the U.S. did not sign up for that joke! > paul > az

Yo Dude – ENRON – These guys play both sides of the fence. Do not forget that the top 200 corporations who rule the world have offices in the 114 countries who DID sign the accord. Before there was Bush to buy, there was Clinton but there was still Bush http://www.lavoisier.com.au/papers/articles/EvansEnron.html The expressive term ‘Baptist-bootlegger’ derives from the days of prohibition. Under prohibition bootleggers and those who transported and supplied illegal alcohol made fortunes. One such entrepreneur was Joseph Kennedy whose second son, John, became US President in 1961. It was in the interests of the bootleggers and their associates to maintain prohibition, but their capacity to engage openly in politics was circumscribed. However, they had allies in the Baptists (and other teetotalists), who believed that alcohol was a deadly threat to the social order, and had worked for decades to get prohibition onto the statute books. The Baptists provided the political cover and the bootleggers pocketed the proceeds. The two groups maintained a great social distance from each other. The middle man in the coalition was a politician who would receive the bootleggers on Sunday morning, and accept campaign donations, and reassure the Baptists, at a convenient weekday appointment, that he was firm for prohibition. Enron was at the centre of an awesome Baptist-bootlegger coalition, but there is no shortage of evidence of the connections which the company and its CEO, Kenneth Lay, had with their Baptist allies. The rents which Enron energetically sought, were truly gargantuan, but could only be realized if the Kyoto Protocol became established as part of US and international law. Ken Lay saw Enron as not only making billions from sales of the natural gas which was to displace coal as the preferred fuel under the Kyoto commitments, but he realised that as an international and domestic trader in carbon credits, Enron could realise hitherto unimagined wealth. Such credits, of course, would only become bankable pieces of paper if governments, particularly the US Government, established and policed a global policy of de-carbonisation under which a global tax on carbon was to be enforced. So as the movement to establish the Kyoto Protocol developed momentum, Ken Lay built up alliances with the green movement, his contemporary Baptists allies. On December 12, 1997, just a day or so after the Kyoto meeting had concluded, an internal Enron memo asserted that the Kyoto Protocol ‘will do more to promote Enron’s business than almost any other regulatory initiative outside of restructuring the energy and natural gas industries in Europe and the United States’. It described the Protocol’s endorsement of international trade in CO2 credits as ‘another victory for us’ adding ‘this agreement will be good for Enron stock’. The memo claimed that Enron had ‘excellent credentials with many green interests’ including Greenpeace. These groups, in turn, were described as referring to Enron ‘in glowing terms’. The organisation which has done more to build and sustain the Baptist-bootlegger coalition which continues to push for US ratification of Kyoto, or an equivalent de-carbonisation programme for the US, is the Pew Centre on Global Climate Change, headed by Eileen Clausen, a frequent visitor to Australia. Eileen Clausen was Assistant Secretary of State under President Clinton with responsibility for International Environment Affairs. When she realised that the US Senate had set its face (in July 97) against the Kyoto Protocol, she resigned her post within the State Department to build a coalition which would, in the long term, reverse that position. Enron was a founding member of her Business Environment Leadership Council. However, Enron’s name no longer appears in the membership list. As the US presidential campaign of 2000 worked its way through the primaries, the conventions, and the TV debates, the polls were, increasingly, indicating a Republican victory. It was only during the last two weeks, when the story of a youthful drink-driving indiscretion by George W broke, that the Democratic nominee, VP Al Gore, made some headway. Everyone knows that a few hundred votes in Florida tipped the election to Dubya, but few people are aware that West Virginia, normally a Democrat stronghold, went for Bush and did so because the coal industry in that state decided to back Bush because he would not endorse Kyoto. Without West Virginia, the vote in Florida would have made no difference. Given the situation which Ken Lee found himself during 2000, cultivating the Republicans was the obvious strategy. He had Kyoto partisans inside the Republican tent. Indeed, the Republican policy platform contained within it a proposal to regulate CO2 emissions from US power stations, just as Enron had been arguing within the Clinton White House for years. The new Bush cabinet met for the first time in late January 2001, and Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill put on the table a paper calling for carbon dioxide regulation and limitation. In so doing, he precipitated a major row within the new Administration. Only now is it emerging that a key figure in persuading O’Neill to step outside his portfolio brief and carry the environmentalist flag, was Timothy Wirth, former Under-secretary of State for Global Affairs under President Clinton, and close confidant of Kenneth Lay, CEO of Enron. http://slate.msn.com/id/2061023/ With the Bush administration taking heat for its ties to Enron, and pointed questions being raised about whether Enron’s collapse suggests that accountants and pension funds require tighter regulation, conservatives have gone on the counterattack. The main strategy has been to point out that many Democrats and/or liberals also fed at the Enron trough, which is certainly true. (Chatterbox continues to believe that in the "government sleaze" department, the only scandalous nugget so far is that former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin lobbied Treasury on behalf of Citigroup, a major Enron creditor.) In the long run, though, arguing that Bob Rubin can be bought with corporate lucre just as easily as Larry Lindsey won’t help conservatism’s twilight struggle against liberalism. It’s a liberal argument. PAY ATTENTION HERE: If the Republicans push this line too hard, they’ll be heading down the slippery slope toward support for campaign-finance reform. Rising to this ideological challenge, the more entrepreneurial conservative commentators have begun to argue that liberalism itself created the Frankenstein monster known as Enron. So far, the argument has taken two forms: 1) The 1960s created Enron. Social conservatives have long argued that the Woodstock generation’s If-It-Feels-Good-Do-It ethic destroyed the nation’s moral fiber. It was a useful tack against homosexuality, abortion, and various other Christian-right bugaboos, but not really helpful when the cause was greater latitude for the free market to wreak creative destruction. In a Jan. 21 column, though, the Wall Street Journal’s Robert Bartley attempts a bold synthesis: The systemic failure is not a matter of economic arrangements, but of the societal collapse of standards and morality over the last three decades or so. As a society we seem increasingly incapable of sitting in judgment of each other-certainly not on the behavior of prominent entertainers, sports figures or presidents. We have a legal profession that tolerates and even promotes abuse of the legal system in class action suits-in the current Microsoft claims settlement enriching lawyers while not even trying to give a cent to supposedly injured plaintiffs. What kind of behavior can an "I’m OK, you’re OK" society expect from its professionals or business leaders? "Presidents" is of course a sly reference to Bill Clinton, the pre-eminent political poster child for 1960s self-indulgence. A Jan. 18 editorial in the Journal blamed Clinton more explicitly: We’d say it’s also impossible to understand Enron outside of the moral climate in which it flourished. Those were the roaring ’90s, when all of America reveled in the economic boom. They were also the Clinton years, when we learned that "everybody does it." The culture wanted to believe in Enron’s promises, which helps explain why 16 of 17 Wall Street analysts rated Enron a "buy" as recently as last October. Not only was Clinton bad, but his economic boom was bad, too! The obvious problem here is that railing against prosperity is a liberal thing to do. Worse, it’s a dumb liberal thing to do. Back to the drawing board. 2) Environmentalism created Enron. Blaming environmentalism is more shrewd than blaming the 1960s because while Timothy Leary and Ken Lay never made common cause, Timothy Wirth and Ken Lay did. A Jan. 17 column by Robert Novak made much of the fact that Wirth, a former Clinton point man on global warming who is now president of Ted Turner’s United Nations Foundation, spread the Kyoto Treaty gospel from Ken Lay to Paul O’Neill when the latter was still running Alcoa. That Enron stood to benefit from the Kyoto Treaty’s international limits on carbon emissions is indisputable: To burn coal, it would be necessary to purchase credits for the emission of CO2. That would create a market for Enron, buying and selling emission credits. Internal memos show that Enron envisioned a profit here as early as 1996. … [A Dec. 1997 Enron memo] asserted that the Kyoto treaty ”will do more to … read more »

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> and this has what to do with the Kyoto treaty or even the broader topic of > Global Warming? > you are losing it. > paul > az

Sounds damned silly but cow farts affect our environment and they cost producers money. Acccccctually…. This is the same theory that some people have put forth to the end of the dinosaurs. High methane. Now, a new theory holds that OAEs – in particular the Toarcian OAE, which occurred about 183 million years ago during the age of dinosaurs – are triggered by the burning of vast underground coalfields. These coalfields were set ablaze by the intrusion of molten rock from the Earth’s crust. "The burnt coalfields are hundreds of feet thick and cover vast areas of the Transantarctic Mountains of Antarctica, as well as South Africa," said Jennifer McElwain, PhD, Associate Curator of Paleobotany at Chicago’s Field Museum and lead author of the research. "Huge quantities of methane and carbon dioxide would have been released from these coals as they were heated to high temperatures by the molten rock." Although OAEs are not universally accepted as models upon which an understanding of modern climate change can be based, this new research sheds light on the possible consequences of the current level of consumption of carbon-based fuels. "If the incredibly high global temperatures that occurred during the Toarcian oceanic anoxic event were caused by burning a significant amount of the Earth’s coal deposits within one hundred thousand years, it doesn’t take much imagination to realize what will happen if we burn most of the Earth’s remaining fossil fuels over the coming century, which is what we are in the process of doing," McElwain said. The scientists, who worked on this research for more than four years, also turned up a totally unexpected result: they identified a 200,000-year interval when atmospheric carbon dioxide dropped to surprisingly low levels at the start of the Toarcian Oceanic Anoxic Event. This was probably due to the great number and activity of marine organisms at this time that effectively sucked carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere like a sponge. This drop cooled the Earth, maybe even enough to have enabled ice sheets to form and grow in the polar regions of the Arctic and Antarctic. The idea of ice sheets during the age of dinosaurs has always been a controversial topic. Nevertheless, McElwain and coauthors Steve Hesselbo, from the Department of Earth Sciences at the University of Oxford in England, and Jessica Wade Murphy, who was an undergraduate student in the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago at the time of this study, believe they have tantalizing evidence that the global temperatures were not as uniformly warm and ice free during the age of dinosaurs, as once assumed. In this study, which was funded by the Comer Foundation of Science and Education, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels were determined by counting the stomata in small fossil leaves collected from B

BBC June 4, 2002 Excerpts "The company was a major donor to President George W. Bush’s 2000 presidential campaign, and was one of a small group of energy companies thought to have been behind much of the administration’s energy policy." "The Bush administration, known for its ties with the energy industry, has admitted that Enron chairman Kenneth Lay made phone calls to senior government officials late last year as the company neared bankruptcy."

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> "The Bush administration, known for its ties with the energy industry, > has admitted that Enron chairman Kenneth Lay made phone calls to senior > government officials late last year as the company neared bankruptcy."

Ken Lay is on Teresa Heinz Kerry`s payroll right NOW! So Ken Lay gets money from Dems and gives it Repubs. Which is worse? See ya, John

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Go John! I’m not real keen on your NAMBLA position but boy you really tell it like it is to those darned liberals! If only Fox News and Rush Radio had more men like you and SoK66, this world would be correct, right, law abiding and AMERICAN. Thank you for being YOU. Your son is an elite member of the US Army and you are truly a righteous Christian man delivering GOD’S word to the liberal LOSERS. America and I SALUTE you Mr. Wheaton! See ya,  John

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> Go John! > I’m not real keen on your NAMBLA position

Then you should be ashamed of your self for supporting such a sick group. See ya, John

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message > BBC > June 4, 2002 > Excerpts > "The company was a major donor to President

George W. Bush’s 2000 > presidential campaign, and was one of a small

group of energy companies > thought to have been behind much of the

administration’s energy > policy." > "The Bush administration, known for its ties

with the energy industry, > has admitted that Enron chairman Kenneth Lay

made phone calls to senior > government officials late last year as the

company neared bankruptcy." Seems like an impeachable offense. But it will never happen with a reptile-pig majority in Congress.

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> Seems like an impeachable offense. > But it will never happen with a reptile-pig > majority in Congress.

If Ken Lay is such a bad guy, and I DO believe he IS a bad guy, why does Teresa Heinz Kerry STILL have him on her payroll? Which is worse, taking his phone calls, or putting him on the payroll? See ya, John

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which one? upon which boards does Mr. Lay still receive pay?

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> which one? upon which boards does Mr. Lay still receive pay?

Two or Three weeks ago I went to the Heinz Foundation and Lay was still on the Board. I posted that fact with a link to the web site then. I wrote at the time how appalling I found it. Ken Lay should be scorned by everyone. See ya, John

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> > which one? upon which boards does Mr. Lay still receive pay? > Two or Three weeks ago

The Howard Heinz Endowment: Board of Directors Teresa Heinz. Chairman Christopher Heinz H. John Heinz IV Carol R. Brown Frank V. Cahouet Judith Davenport Howard M. Love Shirley M. Malcom William H. Rea Barbara Robinson DeWitt Frederick W. Thieman Mallory Walker Drue Heinz, Director Emeritus Heinz Company Foundation: Trustees Jack Runkel, Chairman Tom DiDonato Lori Abert Luke Ted Smyth Laura Stein The Heinz Center: Board of Trustees G. William Miller, Chair Teresa Heinz, Vice Chair Cabell Brand Jared Cohon Ed Guerrini Jonathan Lash Thomas E. Lovejoy William McDonough Shirley M. Malcom Jerry M. Melillo Edward L. Miles Timothy O’Brien David J. Refkin Howard Ris Phyllis Wyeth

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> interesting. I’m going to write to them and ask a few questions. I’ll > be baaahhhck! But you said plural. What are the others?

There were multiple Boards under teh Heinz Foundation. See ya, John

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How many boreds ran screaming from the Wheaton trailer to enlist in the U.S. Army? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->interesting. I’m going to write to them and ask a few questions. I’ll >be baaahhhck! But you said plural. What are the others? > There were multiple Boards under teh Heinz Foundation. > See ya, > John

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> The Howard Heinz Endowment:

I applaud the Heinz Foundation for removing Ken Lay from their Board. For those unaware it was an issue early in last years election. See ya, John

Response:

> There were multiple Boards under teh Heinz Foundation.

The Howard Heinz Endowment: Board of Directors Teresa Heinz. Chairman Christopher Heinz H. John Heinz IV Carol R. Brown Frank V. Cahouet Judith Davenport Howard M. Love Shirley M. Malcom William H. Rea Barbara Robinson DeWitt Frederick W. Thieman Mallory Walker Drue Heinz, Director Emeritus Heinz Company Foundation: Trustees Jack Runkel, Chairman Tom DiDonato Lori Abert Luke Ted Smyth Laura Stein The Heinz Center: Board of Trustees G. William Miller, Chair Teresa Heinz, Vice Chair Cabell Brand Jared Cohon Ed Guerrini Jonathan Lash Thomas E. Lovejoy William McDonough Shirley M. Malcom Jerry M. Melillo Edward L. Miles Timothy O’Brien David J. Refkin Howard Ris Phyllis Wyeth

Response:

> I applaud the Heinz Foundation for removing Ken Lay from their Board.

You are such a bullshitter. You don’t give a flaming fuck one way or the other.

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>> I applaud the Heinz Foundation for removing Ken Lay from their Board. > You are such a bullshitter. You don’t give a flaming fuck one way or the > other.

Your ignorance, AND arrogance know no bounds. Ken Lay was not only on Teresa Heinz Kerry`s payroll, the Heinz Foundation DEFENDED him AFTER info on the Enron Scandal came out. At the SAME TIME that Lefties were screaming about Lay being Bush`s buddy, Heinz had him on the Payroll, and the Heinz Foundation was defending him, while people like you, in complete ignorance were calling Lay a Repub stooge? I applaud parties on both sides of the fence when they get it right! I have shared my disappointment with Repubs in this ng, and I`ve applauded Dems in this ng,  since I am open and honest about my convictions unlike many others here who will only acknowledge Repubs that break the law, or Dems that do something right! :0) See ya, John

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> >> I applaud the Heinz Foundation for removing Ken Lay from their Board. > You are such a bullshitter. You don’t give a flaming fuck one way or the > other. > I applaud parties on both sides of the fence when they get it right!

No you don’t. All you do is attack heros like Felt. You ought to be ashamed.

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>> >> I applaud the Heinz Foundation for removing Ken Lay from their Board. > >>> I applaud parties on both sides of the fence when they get it right! > No you don’t.

Now here`s that lying, and dishonest thing again. Didn`t your parents ever attempt to correct that errant behaviour? If so you must be a great disappointment, if not, it would explain your absence of any moral compass. See ya, John

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so my question is what Wheaton said TRUE or is it one of those smear rumors like McCain fathering a black baby???

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can anysomebody in AGA make a pork rind, jerky and chaw run for me? Gettin` low on the spirits too. Half gallon of Jack and a carton of Marbies`d be- > See ya, > John

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >"Oh she’s far to young to die > You can see it in her eye > She’s not yet begun to fly". > See ya, > John

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> >> >>> I applaud parties on both sides of the fence when they get it right! > No you don’t. > Now here`s that lying, and dishonest thing again.

I know. You keep doing it over and over again. When will you stop?

Response:

> so my question is what Wheaton said TRUE ???

The Heinz Foundation put Ken Lay in charge of their global-warming initiative. When Enron went belly up, the foundation stuck by their man: "Whatever troubles he had at Enron, Ken Lay had a good reputation in the environmental community for being a business man who was environmentally sensitive. When someone does wrong in one part of their life, it doesn’t mean they can’t do good in another part of their life." http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/sunnews/news/opinion/8013706.htm I ALWAYS tell the truth! Read clips, links included. One link shows that Ken Lay IS STILL on a Heinz Board! Former Enron CEO Ken Lay has been a longtime member of the board of trustees of the Heinz Center, an environmental group founded by the candidate’s wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry. She’s the group’s vice chairman, and Lay left the organization’s small board earlier this year after serving for nearly a decade. That would be about two years after the Enron scandal first broke. Lay also served as a trustee for one of Heinz’s foundations according to Bernardo Issel on www.NonprofitWatch.org, even after the firm went into bankruptcy. When asked about his service on those boards, Teresa told Time magazine, "Ken Lay… believed in global climate change. Ken Lay was doing some interesting things in his company about alternative energy policies." http://www.nationalreview.com/kerry/kerry200407091826.asp This next link from the Heinz Center shows that Ken Lay IS STILL on one of the Boards! http://www.heinzctr.org/ecosystems/intro/participants_hc_board.shtml Mr. Lay attended a dinner at Mr. Kerry’s Georgetown home "10 months after Enron went under" and that Mr. Lay had been on a board, the Heinz Foundation, overseen by Mr. Kerry’s wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry. http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040710-113547-1726r.htm Ken Lay had been a trustee of the Heinz Center, a nonprofit foundation established by Heinz Kerry and who is currently on a leave of absence as the board of trustees Vice Chair. Lay remained a trustee even after Enron collapsed. A Heinz Foundation spokesman defended Lay’s service, arguing that he had "a good reputation in the environment community." http://www.capitalresearch.org/news/news.asp?ID=236 See ya, John

Response:

 > Justice will be served and the battle will rage.  > This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage.  > And you’ll be sorry that you messed with the U.S. of A  > Because we’ll put a boot in your ass. It’s the American way.  > Hey, Uncle Sam puts your name at the top of his list,  > and the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.  > And the eagle will fly, and it’s going to be hell.  > You hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell,  > And it’ll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you.  > All brought to you courtesy of the red, white and blue.  > See ya,  > John

Response:

> > so my question is what Wheaton said TRUE ??? > The Heinz Foundation…

While you claim to have high ideals, all you’re doing is trying to trash John Kerry. You’re pathetic and ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Response:

U.S. Warns North Korea Against Nuclear Test By DAVID E. SANGER Published: May 7, 2005 WASHINGTON, May 6 – The White House warned North Korea on Friday that conducting a nuclear test would be "a provocative act," and Japan’s foreign minister raised the possibility of requesting United Nations sanctions against the North. The White House statement came a day after The New York Times reported growing concern among administration officials and several intelligence agencies about signs that North Korea might conduct its first nuclear test at a site near Kilju in the northeast. Several officials confirmed those reports on Friday, and two officials with access to the information said satellites were also watching the construction of some platforms and crates hundreds of miles from the possible test site, near a nuclear reactor at Yongbyon. The construction there may suggest that preparations are being made to remove spent nuclear fuel rods from the reactor, which was turned off more than a month ago. "It’s still something of a mystery," said one of the officials with access to the report. "It’s not clear if this construction is related to the rods or not." If the rods are reprocessed, they could yield enough plutonium for a couple of new nuclear weapons, officials said. But officials have not ruled out the possibility that the reactor was shut for maintenance or as part of a ruse by the North to heighten concern that it is proceeding full steam with its nuclear program. A few intelligence officials urged caution in interpreting the satellite evidence. While they acknowledge finding signs of continued activity near tunnels in the Kilju area, there is clearly some disagreement among intelligence agencies about whether the latest evidence indicates a drive toward a test. "What worries us most is that there is a progression of openness among the North Koreans about their nuclear capabilities," said one senior administration official who has been studying the evidence. "They have unfolded new phases of specificity about what they can do, and they seem to have been on a long-term path of ending the ambiguity about their capability." Whatever the North’s motivations, several governments issued carefully worded warnings on Friday. Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura of Japan noted that negotiations had gone nowhere for the past 11 months, and he added, "If there is no progress we have to think of other options, such as taking this matter to the United Nations Security Council." He stopped short of saying what types of sanctions might be sought. In New York, where a United Nations meeting on the spread of nuclear weapons is under way, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Mohamed ElBaradei, said the world must exert pressure on the North not to conduct a test, saying it would have "disastrous political and environmental consequences." President Bush’s spokesman, Scott McClellan, told reporters on Air Force One on the way to Latvia: "I don’t want to get into discussing intelligence matters. But what I would say is that if North Korea did take such a step, that would just be another provocative act that would further isolate it from the international community." Military and Pentagon officials said Friday that there was no unusual or accelerated planning under way for any military action to halt either a nuclear test or the removal of more nuclear fuel from a North Korean reactor. North Korea’s ability to strike Seoul, the South Korean capital, with conventional mortar rounds from its emplacements north of the demilitarized zone between the two countries and to threaten Japan with missiles has long given the North protection from any American-led strike. These officials emphasized that a diplomatic solution to North Korean nuclear ambitions remained the No. 1 choice across the Bush administration. At the State Department and the White House, officials said they were considering a range of options for taking the issue to the United Nations Security Council. One idea is to establish a quarantine operation – though the administration says it will not use that word – that would search shipments in and out of the country for weapons. But it is unclear whether China or Russia would be willing to allow such a resolution to pass in the Council. Officials acknowledged that even if economic sanctions were approved, there would be no way to enforce them along the Chinese border, where most of North Korea’s trade takes place.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->U.S. Warns North Korea Against Nuclear Test >By DAVID E. SANGER >Published: May 7, 2005 >WASHINGTON, May 6 – The White House warned North Korea on Friday that >conducting a nuclear test would be "a provocative act," and Japan’s >foreign minister raised the possibility of requesting United Nations >sanctions against the North. >The White House statement came a day after The New York Times reported >growing concern among administration officials and several intelligence >agencies about signs that North Korea might conduct its first nuclear >test at a site near Kilju in the northeast. >Several officials confirmed those reports on Friday, and two officials >with access to the information said satellites were also watching the >construction of some platforms and crates hundreds of miles from the >possible test site, near a nuclear reactor at Yongbyon. >The construction there may suggest that preparations are being made to >remove spent nuclear fuel rods from the reactor, which was turned off >more than a month ago. "It’s still something of a mystery," said one of >the officials with access to the report. "It’s not clear if this >construction is related to the rods or not." >If the rods are reprocessed, they could yield enough plutonium for a >couple of new nuclear weapons, officials said. But officials have not >ruled out the possibility that the reactor was shut for maintenance or >as part of a ruse by the North to heighten concern that it is proceeding >full steam with its nuclear program. >A few intelligence officials urged caution in interpreting the satellite >evidence.

These aren’t the same satellites that spotted all of Iraq’s WMDs I hope. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> While they acknowledge finding signs of continued activity >near tunnels in the Kilju area, there is clearly some disagreement among >intelligence agencies about whether the latest evidence indicates a >drive toward a test. >"What worries us most is that there is a progression of openness among >the North Koreans about their nuclear capabilities," said one senior >administration official who has been studying the evidence. "They have >unfolded new phases of specificity about what they can do, and they seem >to have been on a long-term path of ending the ambiguity about their >capability." >Whatever the North’s motivations, several governments issued carefully >worded warnings on Friday. Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura of Japan >noted that negotiations had gone nowhere for the past 11 months, and he >added, "If there is no progress we have to think of other options, such >as taking this matter to the United Nations Security Council." He >stopped short of saying what types of sanctions might be sought. >In New York, where a United Nations meeting on the spread of nuclear >weapons is under way, the head of the International Atomic Energy >Agency, Mohamed ElBaradei, said the world must exert pressure on the >North not to conduct a test, saying it would have "disastrous political >and environmental consequences." >President Bush’s spokesman, Scott McClellan, told reporters on Air Force >One on the way to Latvia: "I don’t want to get into discussing >intelligence matters. But what I would say is that if North Korea did >take such a step, that would just be another provocative act that would >further isolate it from the international community." >Military and Pentagon officials said Friday that there was no unusual or >accelerated planning under way for any military action to halt either a >nuclear test or the removal of more nuclear fuel from a North Korean >reactor. North Korea’s ability to strike Seoul, the South Korean >capital, with conventional mortar rounds from its emplacements north of >the demilitarized zone between the two countries and to threaten Japan >with missiles has long given the North protection from any American-led >strike. These officials emphasized that a diplomatic solution to North >Korean nuclear ambitions remained the No. 1 choice across the Bush >administration. >At the State Department and the White House, officials said they were >considering a range of options for taking the issue to the United >Nations Security Council. One idea is to establish a quarantine >operation – though the administration says it will not use that word – >that would search shipments in and out of the country for weapons. But >it is unclear whether China or Russia would be willing to allow such a >resolution to pass in the Council. >Officials acknowledged that even if economic sanctions were approved, >there would be no way to enforce them along the Chinese border, where >most of North Korea’s trade takes place.

Ken Wilson Amer. Dlx. Tele, Gary Moore LP, LP DC Classic w/P90s, Jeff Beck Strat, Morgan OM Acoustic, Rick 360/12, Std. Strat (MIM), Mesa 100 Nomad, Mesa F-30 "Goodnight Austin, Texas, wherever you are."

Response:

> Any of you right wing Neanderthals care to respond to this? > Many people have become worried about the hard limits to the current > world economy, and particularly the place of America in it: global > warming, which is the limit of how much carbon we can sink into the > earth’s atmosphere and waters, and Hubert’s theory of "Peak Oil," > which predicts that production of oil will plateau and then enter a > decline. Many have also become worried about the seemingly inexorable > growth of America’s trade and budget deficits, as well as the > ever-spiraling imports of energy from abroad.

You were doing fine up to now. Let’s see if this is your game. > Finally, many have > become concerned about the growing inequality of the distribution of > wealth and the decline in real wages. It makes many angry that, in a > time when America seems to be strip-mining its environment, its credit > and its people, we are ruled by the most reactionary American > political party to take power since the days when strikers were shot > by state militia units, a party that has chosen not to address any of > these problems, but instead, tells us that all will be well.

I suppose Bush, like Bill Gates, is responsible for every key stroke hit on the keyboard, that causes a panic attack. Your freaking Lefty Party is the most NIMBY driven of the two parties. Freaking Kennedy and old red nose, are the most two faced of the environmental con men. Till they put wind mills up in Cape Cod, you can take your freaking finger pointing, and stick it where the sun don’t shine. In the mean time, how much phantom load do you have in YOUR house. Throw all those useless consumer products in the freaking garbage. Like that freaking computer of yours, that when the off switch is hit, it’s still sucking energy from the TIT of the power grid.  How, about the clock radio, DVD, digital TV, etc,….   Load ‘em up hot shot.  Line ‘em up at the road side curb for the dumpster truck. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,        Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Any of you right wing Neanderthals care to respond to this? >Many people have become worried about the hard limits to the current >world economy, and particularly the place of America in it: global >warming, which is the limit of how much carbon we can sink into the >earth’s atmosphere and waters, and Hubert’s theory of "Peak Oil," >which predicts that production of oil will plateau and then enter a >decline. Many have also become worried about the seemingly inexorable >growth of America’s trade and budget deficits, as well as the >ever-spiraling imports of energy from abroad. >You were doing fine up to now. >Let’s see if this is your game. >Finally, many have >become concerned about the growing inequality of the distribution of >wealth and the decline in real wages. It makes many angry that, in a >time when America seems to be strip-mining its environment, its credit >and its people, we are ruled by the most reactionary American >political party to take power since the days when strikers were shot >by state militia units, a party that has chosen not to address any of >these problems, but instead, tells us that all will be well. >I suppose Bush, like Bill Gates, is responsible for every key stroke hit on the keyboard, that >causes a panic attack. >Your freaking Lefty Party is the most NIMBY driven of the two parties. >Freaking Kennedy and old red nose, are the most two faced of the environmental con men. >Till they put wind mills up in Cape Cod, you can take your freaking finger pointing, and stick it >where the sun don’t shine. >In the mean time, how much phantom load do you have in YOUR house. >Throw all those useless consumer products in the freaking garbage. >Like that freaking computer of yours, that when the off switch is hit, it’s still sucking energy >from the TIT of the power grid.  How, about the clock radio, DVD, digital TV, etc,….   >Load ‘em up hot shot.  Line ‘em up at the road side curb for the dumpster truck. >Regards, >Rich Koerner, >Time Electronics. >http://www.timeelect.com >Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, >       Music & Studio Production, >Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers

So what you’re saying is that it’s really OK for us as a society to be so utterly dependent on oil for our energy?  As a businessman does it make sense to put all your eggs in one basket? I don’t really think that the electricity and plastics are necessarily a bad thing. What’s bad is that alternatives to oil have not been fully explored and have been suppressed in many cases. Do you really think that the oil companies can be depended on to develop alternatives? Did you know that the largest single consumer of oil is the US government?   Can an entity with such a vested interest be expected to look for alternatives? I’m not pointing fingers at either side because they are equally responsible, and we are all responsible for not paying attention. In fact the oil companies stand to benefit a great deal from the decline of oil because they can sell it at a higher profit margin. There is a great deal of incentive for the oil companies to not seek alternatives and even suppress them. Oil is the driving force of our economy, and it’s going to run out at some point. Optimistic estimates put it at 30 to 50 years, pessimistic estimates are much less.  Something  needs to take it’s place or it will be very bad for all of us….. Tubeguru

Response:

Let’s add a bit of a survey, if you will….I’m not a democrat….I vote for the person.  I know that LV and others will usually claim I’m a lefty democrat, however. If you have a party affiliation that you’ll admit to…or not….let’s answer a couple of easy questions, just for grins.  I’m not trying to prove anything here…I’m curious.  Really.  That’s all it is.  Please be honest…..I’ll go first and I’ll be totally honest. 1.  What kind of car is your "primary" vehicle and is it fuel efficient?       1990 Geo Tracker—-35-40 mpg (highway) 2.  Do you recycle (cans, bottles, paper, plastic, etc.)?        Yes….we recycle anything they’ll take. 3.  Do you think Americans are wasteful?         Yes. 4.  Is oil an endless resource?         No.  At the current rate of consumption, it will run out in 40-50 years…or less!. 5.  Are you Republican or Democrat or ??? or, no comment?          ??  I vote for the person, regardless of party. Tha’s it.  I have no idea how this may play out….but I compare our family to our neighbor’s, who are die-hard republicans.  They have not one, but *2* big SUV’s and a *huge* speedboat.  (they have one small child at home….and I typically see each adult driving alone in one of those huge cars)  They don’t recycle, at all.  "We probably should…." is the answer I got.  Based on the fact that they have indoor and outdoor lights that are on 24/7, I think of them as the typical *wasteful* family.  Obviously, they can afford it.  But, can the rest of us afford people like them? Is it a characteristic of the "new" neocon republican?  Or, is it totally meaningless? As I said, I’m curious. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Any of you right wing Neanderthals care to respond to this? >Many people have become worried about the hard limits to the current >world economy, and particularly the place of America in it: global >warming, which is the limit of how much carbon we can sink into the >earth’s atmosphere and waters, and Hubert’s theory of "Peak Oil," >which predicts that production of oil will plateau and then enter a >decline. Many have also become worried about the seemingly inexorable >growth of America’s trade and budget deficits, as well as the >ever-spiraling imports of energy from abroad. Finally, many have >become concerned about the growing inequality of the distribution of >wealth and the decline in real wages. It makes many angry that, in a >time when America seems to be strip-mining its environment, its credit >and its people, we are ruled by the most reactionary American >political party to take power since the days when strikers were shot >by state militia units, a party that has chosen not to address any of >these problems, but instead, tells us that all will be well.

Response:

> Any of you right wing Neanderthals care to respond to this?

"Truth"?  "Facts"?  What facts, you described a series of opinions which might or might not be based on facts, so what exactly are you asking people to respond to?

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> Let’s add a bit of a survey, if you will….I’m not a democrat….I vote > for the person.  I know that LV and others will usually claim I’m a > lefty democrat, however. > If you have a party affiliation that you’ll admit to…or not….let’s > answer a couple of easy questions, just for grins.  I’m not trying to > prove anything here…I’m curious.  Really.  That’s all it is.  Please > be honest…..I’ll go first and I’ll be totally honest.

! ! !   "Totall honest"  vs  what… ? ?   > 1.  What kind of car is your "primary" vehicle and is it fuel efficient? >      1990 Geo Tracker—-35-40 mpg (highway)

Better question might be… "What criteria determines your car purchase..??? > 2.  Do you recycle (cans, bottles, paper, plastic, etc.)? >       Yes….we recycle anything they’ll take.

Recycling is good… but not many folks know the "cost" of recycling…  I’ve heard/read different takes on this. > 3.  Do you think Americans are wasteful? >        Yes.

Wastefull compared to whom…? ? ?   One mans "wasteful" may be another mans frugal. > 4.  Is oil an endless resource? >        No.  At the current rate of consumption, it will run out in 40-50 > years…or less!.

Nothing is "endless"… sunlight will end in a couple billion years..??  But more to the point… I guess you somehow have decided that ALL the oil available has been discovered… that no new fields will be discovered.  Have you forgotten (or did you ever know) that as the price of oil/gas increases other "alternative" sources for gasoline become attractive. OH MY…! ! !  That’s one of the amazing things about chemistry, there’s more than one way to "get the product" made. Have you heard of "coal gasification"…? ? ?   google it up, I suppose there’s plenty out there about it.  How much coal is there in the world.. ? ? ? South Africa has a HUGE CG plant. Then we can move on to ‘oil shale’… while it would pose a dilema to the ‘environmental extremists’ it’s another option for making oil/gasoline/etc… > 5.  Are you Republican or Democrat or ??? or, no comment? >         ??  I vote for the person, regardless of party.

Independent.  I also vote for the person… not the party. > Tha’s it.  I have no idea how this may play out….but I compare our > family to our neighbor’s, who are die-hard republicans.  They have not > one, but *2* big SUV’s and a *huge* speedboat.  (they have one small > child at home….and I typically see each adult driving alone in one of > those huge cars).  They don’t recycle, at all.  "We probably should…." > is the answer I got.  Based on the fact that they have indoor and > outdoor lights that are on 24/7, I think of them as the typical > *wasteful* family.  Obviously, they can afford it.  But, can the rest of > us afford people like them?

Obviously, your "sample" is pretty small…     But I’ve *noticed* over the years that as people make more money and *pay more taxes* they tend to *become* Republicans…. Another thing I *notice*…  the folks I know who *might* benefit most from govt "social services" and are staunchly Democratic (ie- "the govt should pay") in their political views, openly claim to do EVERYTHING in their power (cheat??) to NOT pay taxes.  There seem to no shortage of people who *expect* (demand even??) to receive govt assistance while having no complusion to pay taxes. > Is it a characteristic of the "new" neocon republican?  Or, is it > totally meaningless?

Maybe not "totally meaningless"… but folks were living exactly as you describe LONG before the concept of "neocon republican" came about.  I also would guess that there are MILLIONS of Democrats who drive big SUVs and use TONS AND TONS of energy…. first one that comes to mind is John Kerry.  He owns quite a few BIG SUVs IIRC…. > As I said, I’m curious.

Ats ok. gtski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Mike > Any of you right wing Neanderthals care to respond to this? > Many people have become worried about the hard limits to the current > world economy, and particularly the place of America in it: global > warming, which is the limit of how much carbon we can sink into the > earth’s atmosphere and waters, and Hubert’s theory of "Peak Oil," > which predicts that production of oil will plateau and then enter a > decline. Many have also become worried about the seemingly inexorable > growth of America’s trade and budget deficits, as well as the > ever-spiraling imports of energy from abroad. Finally, many have > become concerned about the growing inequality of the distribution of > wealth and the decline in real wages. It makes many angry that, in a > time when America seems to be strip-mining its environment, its credit > and its people, we are ruled by the most reactionary American > political party to take power since the days when strikers were shot > by state militia units, a party that has chosen not to address any of > these problems, but instead, tells us that all will be well.

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… > As I said, I’m curious. > Ats ok.

You *could* have answered the questions… __ Steve .

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> The facts about the upcoming energy crisis.  Which most people, > including yourself, seem to be terribly ignorant of.

I’ve probably forgotten more about the subject than you’ll ever know sparky, used to work in that area some years back, when you’ve spent time fifty below zero drilling holes in the earth looking for extract of dinosaur you *really* come to know how valuable the stuff is.  Ever do anything like that sunshine, or do you just read a lot?  Oh wait, I forgot, liberals don’t need hands-on experience of anything to know more about it than the people who actually do it, how silly of me to forget that. I am under no illusions about the dimishing supply of fossil fuels on this planet, and I find America’s fascination with gigantic gas sucking vehicles to be bizarre at the least, all these commercials with huge pickup trucks pulling enormous trailers full of manly gear, or the muscle cars screaming over winding country roads, it could almost be funny if it wasn’t so depressing. Now please take a closer look at the first post, you’ll maybe note that it contains a series of opinions, guesses, estimates and even a clearly-labelled theory as pasted below.  So, I repeat, where are the "facts" the original poster wanted a response to? "Many people have become worried" "Hubert’s theory" " Many have also become worried" "Finally, many have become concerned " > Do some reading and get back to me:

If you had the ghost of an echo of a hint of clue, maybe, but you’re just another self-important, smug little turd who compensates for nobody listening to him in real life by posting theatrical little lectures on subjects he knows nothing about.  You have zero of value to say on this or any other subject, pardon me if I don’t waste any further time on you.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Any of you right wing Neanderthals care to respond to this? >> Many people have become worried about the hard limits to the current >> world economy, and particularly the place of America in it: global >> warming, which is the limit of how much carbon we can sink into the >> earth’s atmosphere and waters, and Hubert’s theory of "Peak Oil," >> which predicts that production of oil will plateau and then enter a >> decline. Many have also become worried about the seemingly inexorable >> growth of America’s trade and budget deficits, as well as the >> ever-spiraling imports of energy from abroad. > You were doing fine up to now. > Let’s see if this is your game. >> Finally, many have >> become concerned about the growing inequality of the distribution of >> wealth and the decline in real wages. It makes many angry that, in a >> time when America seems to be strip-mining its environment, its credit >> and its people, we are ruled by the most reactionary American >> political party to take power since the days when strikers were shot >> by state militia units, a party that has chosen not to address any of >> these problems, but instead, tells us that all will be well. > I suppose Bush, like Bill Gates, is responsible for every key stroke hit on the keyboard, that > causes a panic attack. > Your freaking Lefty Party is the most NIMBY driven of the two parties. > Freaking Kennedy and old red nose, are the most two faced of the environmental con men. > Till they put wind mills up in Cape Cod, you can take your freaking finger pointing, and stick > it > where the sun don’t shine. > In the mean time, how much phantom load do you have in YOUR house. > Throw all those useless consumer products in the freaking garbage. > Like that freaking computer of yours, that when the off switch is hit, it’s still sucking energy > from the TIT of the power grid.  How, about the clock radio, DVD, digital TV, etc,…. > Load ‘em up hot shot.  Line ‘em up at the road side curb for the dumpster truck. > Regards, > Rich Koerner, > Time Electronics. > http://www.timeelect.com > Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, >        Music & Studio Production, > Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers > So what you’re saying is that it’s really OK for us as a society to be so utterly dependent on oil > for our energy?

What,…….  I don’t what I’m saying, to have to play it back for me all WRONG!!!!!! <puzzled look> Turn up your hearing aid, or clean your glasses. >  As a businessman does it make sense to put all your eggs in one basket? I don’t really think that > the electricity and plastics are necessarily a bad thing.

There is not a thing, in your air space, that does not REQUIRE the use of some form of energy.  YOU, are not the only being on the planet. Everywhere you look around you, you will find some form of energy being used. Look at all the artifical lights around you in the day time.  That increases when the sun goes down. ONLY, when the power grid has the plug pulled, do does your life come to a sudden stop.   No computer, TV, radio, cell phone, traffic lights, communications, air conditioning, foods going bad in the fridge, can’t wash and dry the clothes, gas pumps at the gas station don’t work,…. getting the picture now. Now, how far can you cut back the wasteful uses of energy.  PHANTOM LOAD is an easy one without much impact on your life.  So, start there. BUT, I take a few candles, and go an set an intonation the old way, and I can get some work done. Hand work, is hand work.  Work with power tools, ain’t going to happen. With the use of electricity, there is production of products for commerce. Next, the is the transportation of the goods to the consummer, by which other forms of energy are to be used. Yes, it’s the transportation issue, that requires the use of energy from oil, besides the heating of your in your air space. > What’s bad is that alternatives to oil > have not been fully explored and have been suppressed in many cases. Do you really think that the > oil companies can be depended on to develop alternatives? Did you know that the largest single > consumer of oil is the US government?  Can an entity with such a vested interest be expected to > look for alternatives? I’m not pointing fingers at either side because they are equally > responsible, and we are all responsible for not paying attention.

There you go, it’s an ALL of us thing. How much energy does it take to power the population of cell phones in this country for one day. > In fact the oil companies stand > to benefit a great deal from the decline of oil because they can sell it at a higher profit > margin. There is a great deal of incentive for the oil companies to not seek alternatives and even > suppress them. Oil is the driving force of our economy, > and it’s going to run out at some point. Optimistic estimates put it at 30 to 50 years, > pessimistic estimates are much less.  Something  needs to take it’s place or it will be very bad > for all of us…..

Then, go to the constant tides, along with the periodic sun and wind for their energy. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,        Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > The 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee STR8 will have a 415 hp engine and 0-60 < 6 seconds. > In 1996 the Jeep Grand Cherokee had a 190 hp engine. > Support Our Troops. God Bless America.

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Leftist "Henny Penny The Sky is Falling" end-of-the-world tripe snipped….

No, how about SPELLING first, numb-nuts!

No, let’s pull the plug on YOU, then DRILL in ANWR, BUILD more nuke plants and BURN more coal. Stick all your social activism, global-warming trojan horse malarky up your keester, commie. You can spend all the time you’d like butt-fucking your leftist allies over how to control the REAL cause of climate change, the FUCKING SUN, nitwit! Leftist retro-luddites can save us all the energy we could ever need by SHUTTING THE FUCK UP!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Leftist "Henny Penny The Sky is Falling" end-of-the-world tripe snipped…. > No, how about SPELLING first, numb-nuts! > No, let’s pull the plug on YOU, then DRILL in ANWR, BUILD more nuke plants > and BURN more coal. Stick all your social activism, global-warming trojan > horse malarky up your keester, commie. You can spend all the time you’d like > butt-fucking your leftist allies over how to control the REAL cause of > climate change, the FUCKING SUN, nitwit! > Leftist retro-luddites can save us all the energy we could ever need by > SHUTTING THE FUCK UP!

It’s Mark… __ Steve .

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Musings on facts:. Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. John Adams (1735 – 1826), ‘Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials,’ December 1770 We can have facts without thinking but we cannot have thinking without facts. John Dewey (1859 – 1952) Let us take things as we find them: let us not attempt to distort them into what they are not. We cannot make facts. All our wishing cannot change them. We must use them. John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801 – 1890) Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain (1835 – 1910) Facts are stupid things. Ronald Reagan (1911 – 2004)

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> Musings on facts:.

Another great post! See ya, John

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> Any of you right wing Neanderthals care to respond to this?

Sure!  Youre an idiot.  >plonk!< Rob

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A couple of interesting quotes from a story about ANWR; Critics falsely claim ANWR will only produce six months of oil. This incorrectly assumes ANWR would be the only oil field in operation in the world. In fact, ANWR oil will make significant contributions to the nation’s energy supply for decades, replacing what we import from Saudi Arabia for the next 20 years. To bring this statistic home, ANWR alone would supply the state of Washington with all of its oil needs for 15 years. Federal biologists began surveying the Central Arctic caribou herd in 1978, after the Alaska pipeline began operation. Since then, the herd has grown from 5,000 to over 32,000 animals. Alaska has proven it can be responsible; wildlife in ANWR will continue to coexist with cautious oil and gas exploration. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002225669_murkowski31….

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Hey John – one or two OT posts is OK (some would argue that none are OK) but you went alittle aboard here, don’t you think?  I mean it’s bordering on spamming this forum. Mr Soul

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> Hey John – one or two OT posts is OK (some would argue that none are > OK) but you went alittle aboard here, don’t you think?  I mean it’s > bordering on spamming this forum. > Mr Soul

 His next post better be amp related or I’m going to make him a rare killfile member. winnard

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This is exactly what the USGS says about ANWR: "The total quantity of technically recoverable oil within the entire assessment area is estimated to be between 5.7 and 16.0 billion barrels (95-percent and 5- percent probability range), with a mean value of 10.4 billion barrels. Technically recoverable oil within the ANWR 1002 area (excluding State and Native areas) is estimated to be between 4.3 and 11.8 billion barrels (95-and 5-percent probability range), with a mean value of 7.7 billion barrels (table 1). Quantities of technically recoverable oil are not expected to be uniformly distributed throughout the ANWR 1002 area. The undeformed area (fig. 2) is estimated to contain between 3.4 and 10.2 billion barrels of oil (BBO) (95- and 5-percent probability), with a mean of 6.4 BBO. The deformed area (fig. 2) is estimated to contain between 0 and 3.2 BBO (95- and 5-percent probability), with a mean of 1.2 BBO." The article you site says: "In fact, ANWR oil will make significant contributions to the nation’s energy supply for decades, replacing what we import from Saudi Arabia for the next 20 years." Assuming that we consume +20 million barrels a day, you do the math.  I get ~500 days.

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> Hey John – one or two OT posts is OK (some would argue that none are > OK) but you went alittle aboard here, don’t you think?  I mean it’s > bordering on spamming this forum. > Mr Soul >  His next post better be amp related or I’m going to make him a rare > killfile member.

This is a technique… overload your opposition. __ Steve .

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> A couple of interesting quotes from a story about ANWR; > Critics falsely claim ANWR will only produce six months of oil. This > incorrectly assumes ANWR would be the only oil field in operation in the > world. In fact, ANWR oil will make significant contributions to the nation’s > energy supply for decades, replacing what we import from Saudi Arabia for > the next 20 years. To bring this statistic home, ANWR alone would supply the > state of Washington with all of its oil needs for 15 years.

A drop in the barrel… the point is that we need to be weaned from oil, it’s not only tearing up our environment, it causes us to be dependant on foreign sources.  The ANWR oil will go into the global commodities market, don’t think for a minute that it will be reserved for the US. In fact, it is highly probable that most of the oil will go to the Far East. > Federal biologists began surveying the Central Arctic caribou herd in 1978, > after the Alaska pipeline began operation. Since then, the herd has grown > from 5,000 to over 32,000 animals. Alaska has proven it can be responsible; > wildlife in ANWR will continue to coexist with cautious oil and gas > exploration.

This contains the hidden assumption that more caribou = responsible. It also doesn’t ask the question… was damage done during the construction?  It would not show up in these statistics!  You could have had 100,000 caribou before construction started, and gotten the same resulting stats.  Lies, damn lies…etc. The entire ecosystem as a whole is not treated… and I think you’ll have to agree that the tragedy in Prince William Sound would have to figure into any environmental impact study of the Alaskan Pipeline.  Seems as I remember that as a biggie… and lest we not realise the unspoken agenda behind this article, let’s give readers here a taste of the first paragraph: <>  For more than a century, the economic vitality of Washington state and Alaska has been intertwined. From the Gold Rush to the oil boom, money and natural resources leaving Alaska have passed through Washington, creating tens of thousands of jobs. Seattle-based companies are key investors in Alaska’s multibillion-dollar seafood, shipping, tourism and retail industries. </> Not real heavy on the global environmental angle, eh? __ Steve .

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In San Markos wird wieder einmal geputscht. Vom amerikanischen Fernsehen direkt

Here is yet another method of controlling a population, effectively used in the past, by those in control in Germany, in the 1930’s–40’s.   Notice I didn’t use the "N" word, so as not to stir up the "denial" crowd.  (smirk) This is called "intimidation", among other things….. HOUSTON (Reuters) – U.S. labor union locals are being audited by teams of federal government inspectors in what officials say is part of a labor law enforcement campaign and union leaders charge is payback for opposing President Bush’s reelection. "We kind of looked at it as something of a shot across the bow of labor," said Bob Frase, executive assistant to the secretary-treasurer of the Paper, Allied-Industrial, Chemical and Energy Workers International Union (PACE). The union, based in Nashville, Tennessee, has advised all of its local units to expect audits this year. PACE represents 275,000 workers in the paper, chemical and energy industries. "We haven’t seen anything like this before," Frase said. Oh, but then I must be a liberal, because I think this sort of behavior is wrong. Mike P.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Here is yet another method of controlling a population, effectively used > in the past, by those in control in Germany, in the 1930’s–40’s.   > Notice I didn’t use the "N" word, so as not to stir up the "denial" > crowd.  (smirk) > This is called "intimidation", among other things….. > HOUSTON (Reuters) – U.S. labor union locals are being audited by teams > of federal government inspectors in what officials say is part of a > labor law enforcement campaign and union leaders charge is payback for > opposing President Bush’s reelection. > "We kind of looked at it as something of a shot across the bow of > labor," said Bob Frase, executive assistant to the secretary-treasurer > of the Paper, Allied-Industrial, Chemical and Energy Workers > International Union (PACE). > The union, based in Nashville, Tennessee, has advised all of its local > units to expect audits this year. PACE represents 275,000 workers in the > paper, chemical and energy industries. > "We haven’t seen anything like this before," Frase said. > Oh, but then I must be a liberal, because I think this sort of behavior > is wrong. > Mike P.

i pretty generally don’t replay to threads like this… but… do they have something to hide? if not, than yeah, i can imagine its a pain in the ass, but fact is, people get audited all the time.

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> i pretty generally don’t replay to threads like this… but… > do they have something to hide? if not, than yeah, i can imagine its a > pain in the ass, but fact is, people get audited all the time.

Not like this, they don’t….unless someone puts the auditors up to it. (wink) Mike

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hide? if not, than yeah, i can imagine its a > pain in the ass, but fact is, people get audited all the time. > Not like this, they don’t….unless someone puts the auditors up to it.

How do you KNOW that, not suspect, but KNOW that someone put the auditors up up it? See ya, John

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> i pretty generally don’t replay to threads like this… but… > do they have something to hide? if not, than yeah, i can imagine its a > pain in the ass, but fact is, people get audited all the time. > Not like this, they don’t….unless someone puts the auditors up to it. > (wink) > Mike

see, "thinking that the behavior is wrong" isn’t your problem, it’s assuming that you know the whole story and that every action should be taken in a negative way.

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Here is yet another method of controlling a population, effectively used in the past, by those in control in Germany, in the 1930’s–40’s. Notice I didn’t use the "N" word, so as not to stir up the "denial" crowd.  (smirk) This is called "intimidation", among other things….. HOUSTON (Reuters) – U.S. labor union locals are being audited by teams of federal government inspectors in what officials say is part of a labor law enforcement campaign and union leaders charge is payback for opposing President Bush’s reelection. "We kind of looked at it as something of a shot across the bow of labor," said Bob Frase, executive assistant to the secretary-treasurer of the Paper, Allied-Industrial, Chemical and Energy Workers International Union (PACE). The union, based in Nashville, Tennessee, has advised all of its local units to expect audits this year. PACE represents 275,000 workers in the paper, chemical and energy industries. "We haven’t seen anything like this before," Frase said. Oh, but then I must be a liberal, because I think this sort of behavior is wrong. Mike P. Well, you are certainly not a traitor to your species like the chumps who voted for the reptilian crypto-nazis presently abusing their power and fucking over the entire planet. KABONG!~!~!~ "If fascism came to America it would be on a program of Americanism." ~Huey P. Long

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> > do they have something to hide? if not, than yeah, i can imagine its a > pain in the ass, but fact is, people get audited all the time. > Not like this, they don’t….unless someone puts the auditors up to it.

It’s looks like we’re heading back to the days when Richard Nixon used the IRS for political intimidation.

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> It’s looks like we’re heading back to the days when Richard Nixon used > the IRS for political intimidation.

What PROOF do you have of that? See ya, John

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> > It’s looks like we’re heading back to the days when Richard Nixon used > the IRS for political intimidation. > What PROOF do you have of that?

Tricky Dicky wouldn’t have done anything like that, WOULD HE? -= Sniggles =- http://www.artcontext.org/activism/politics/bush.php http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm http://www.irelandsown.net/bushhitler.html http://www.bant-shirts.com/fuck-bush-t-shirt.htm http://artcontext.org/bushsucks/list.php

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> > It’s looks like we’re heading back to the days when Richard Nixon used > the IRS for political intimidation. > What PROOF do you have of that?

I guess you’re like one of those guys that try and deny the Holocaust happened. How sad.

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> I guess you’re like one of those guys that try and deny the Holocaust > happened.

Which "Holocaust" are you talking about? The Spanish Inquisition? The one involving Native Americans? The Armenians? Or are you talking about the one during WW2, where 6 of the 56 million killed happened to be Jewish?

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> > I guess you’re like one of those guys that try and deny the Holocaust > happened. > Which "Holocaust" are you talking about?

The one generally referred to by that name of late (with a capital "H"), the one in  which millions of Jews, Gypsies and Gays were murdered by he Germans in the 30’s and 40’s.

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heading back to the days when Richard Nixon used > > the IRS for political intimidation.

John wrote What PROOF do you have of that? >Timepix wrote I guess you’re like one of those guys that try and deny the >Holocaust > happened.

There is plenty of proof that the Nazi`s murdered millions. > How sad.

It is very sad that there was NO LOGIC in your comment. See ya, John

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Funny how the people with tin foil hats can never give you a straight answer when asked to back up their wacko theories.  Here’s another theory: Maybe those unions are corrupt and skimming money from workers’ pensions and that’s why they’re being audited.  No, we’ve NEVER seen unions do THAT sort of thing before, have we? How about some straight proof to back up some of the accusations, folks? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Here is yet another method of controlling a population, effectively used > in the past, by those in control in Germany, in the 1930’s–40’s. > Notice I didn’t use the "N" word, so as not to stir up the "denial" > crowd.  (smirk) > This is called "intimidation", among other things….. > HOUSTON (Reuters) – U.S. labor union locals are being audited by teams > of federal government inspectors in what officials say is part of a > labor law enforcement campaign and union leaders charge is payback for > opposing President Bush’s reelection. > "We kind of looked at it as something of a shot across the bow of > labor," said Bob Frase, executive assistant to the secretary-treasurer > of the Paper, Allied-Industrial, Chemical and Energy Workers > International Union (PACE). > The union, based in Nashville, Tennessee, has advised all of its local > units to expect audits this year. PACE represents 275,000 workers in the > paper, chemical and energy industries. > "We haven’t seen anything like this before," Frase said. > Oh, but then I must be a liberal, because I think this sort of behavior > is wrong. > Mike P. > i pretty generally don’t replay to threads like this… but… > do they have something to hide? if not, than yeah, i can imagine its a > pain in the ass, but fact is, people get audited all the time. > Not like this, they don’t….unless someone puts the auditors up to it. > (wink) > Mike something to > hide? if not, than yeah, i can imagine its a >> pain in the ass, but fact is, people get audited all the time. > Not like this, they don’t….unless someone puts the auditors up to it. > How do you KNOW that, not suspect, but KNOW that someone put the auditors up > up it? > See ya, > John > see, "thinking that the behavior is wrong" isn’t your problem, it’s > assuming that you know the whole story and that every action should be > taken in a negative way. > Well, you are certainly not a traitor to your > species > like the chumps who voted for the reptilian > crypto-nazis > presently abusing their power and fucking over the > entire > planet. > KABONG!~!~!~ > "If fascism came to America it would be on a > program of Americanism." > ~Huey P. Long > It’s looks like we’re heading back to the days when Richard Nixon used > the IRS for political intimidation. > What PROOF do you have of that? > See ya, > John > Tricky Dicky wouldn’t have done anything like that, WOULD HE? > -= Sniggles =- > http://www.artcontext.org/activism/politics/bush.php > http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm > http://www.irelandsown.net/bushhitler.html > http://www.bant-shirts.com/fuck-bush-t-shirt.htm > http://artcontext.org/bushsucks/list.php

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> > > I guess you’re like one of those guys that try and deny the Holocaust > > happened. > Which "Holocaust" are you talking about? > The Spanish Inquisition? > The one involving Native Americans? > The Armenians? > Or are you talking about the one during WW2, where 6 of the 56 million > killed happened to be Jewish? > The one generally referred to by that name of late (with a capital "H"), > the one in  which millions of Jews, Gypsies and Gays were murdered by he > Germans in the 30’s and 40’s.

Oh, that one.  Again. Interesting, how that’s the only one we ever hear about. I guess the others aren’t as important.

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> What do you expect when the US is being run by a Judaeo-Christian > cabal who’s one objective is destroying Islam?

There have been numerous speeches where the President made a point of saying that we are NOT going after Muslims. Right after 9/11, he invited many US Muslim leaders to the White House. Now you say that the US is intent on destroying the largest faith in the world? Please give me the proof of that. See ya, John

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> There have been numerous speeches where the President made a point of > saying > that we are NOT going after Muslims. Right after 9/11, he invited many US > Muslim leaders to the White House. Now you say that the US is intent on > destroying the largest faith in the world? Please give me the proof of > that.

This country’s government is largely financed by the Jews. You see how Israel opperates.   How much proof do you need?

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> > What do you expect when the US is being run by a Judaeo-Christian > cabal who’s one objective is destroying Islam? > There have been numerous speeches where the

President made a point of saying > that we are NOT going after Muslims.

That slimy devil of a president has said *all sorts of things*. It doesn’t mean any of it is true. >Right after 9/11, he invited many US > Muslim leaders to the White House.

That’s "Public Relations" Show-biz. Just like when Dickhead Cheney met in secret with top energy industrialist CEOs for the "Blue Skies" initiative, but posed with environmentalists (who were not allowed to the meeting) for a Photo-op after the meeting. >Now you say that the US is intent on > destroying the largest faith in the world?

Please give me the proof of that. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." > See ya, > John

You are a traitor to your species. KABONG!~!~!~ "How did tax cuts for the rich become a religious imperative?" ~Hal Wallis

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> This country’s government is largely financed by the Jews. You see how > Israel opperates.   How much proof do you need?

Something substantial but some that is NOT a racist. Where do get that the US Government is largely financed by the Jews? See ya, John

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> That slimy devil of a president has said *all > sorts of things*. It doesn’t mean > any of it is true.

The press would take him a part, and quite publicly. They`ve even made it up when they couldn`t find real proof. >Right after 9/11, he invited many US > Muslim leaders to the White House. > That’s "Public Relations" Show-biz. Just like when > Dickhead Cheney > met in secret with top energy industrialist CEOs > for the "Blue Skies" > initiative, but posed with environmentalists (who > were not allowed > to the meeting) for a Photo-op after the meeting.

No different than Bill & Hillary`s health care meetings. There are closed door meeting by both side, and I don`t like it, no matter who does it. > "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Well we do agree on something. > You are a traitor to your species.

How so? See ya, John

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> > This country’s government is largely financed by the Jews. You see how > Israel opperates.   How much proof do you need? > Something substantial but some that is NOT a racist.

There’s absolutely nothing "racist" about what should be a rather obvious fact.  Perhaps you’re a racist?

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>> > This country’s government is largely financed by the Jews. You see how > > Israel opperates.   How much proof do you need? > Something substantial but some that is NOT a racist. > There’s absolutely nothing "racist" about what should be a rather obvious > fact.  Perhaps you’re a racist?

It is NOT obvious that "the US Government is funded largely by the Jews". Your comment, now please verify it. See ya, John

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> > There have been numerous speeches where the President made a point of > saying > that we are NOT going after Muslims. Right after 9/11, he invited many US > Muslim leaders to the White House. Now you say that the US is intent on > destroying the largest faith in the world? Please give me the proof of > that. > This country’s government is largely financed by the Jews. You see how > Israel opperates.   How much proof do you need?

Ah. One of *those*.  Figures.  Tell us about the ZOG, won’t you? LV

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in > > That slimy devil of a president has said *all > sorts of things*. It doesn’t mean > any of it is true. > The press would take him a part, and quite

publicly. They`ve even made it up > when they couldn`t find real proof.

First, what do you define as the press? Fox Fair and Biased News? Draft-dodger, drug addict, propagandizing pundit Rash Limpdick? The "mainstream" media? Tear him apart? About his alleged cocaine and drinking history? Going AWOL? The election frauds? The conflict of interest with Scalaia’s son on the Bush legal team? The Bush/Enron connection? WMD and imminent threat? Mission Accomplished? Appointing wolves to watch the henhouses – appointing former CEOs of industry to oversee the overseeing departments and the conflict of interest involving that? We hear inklings of some of these reports but they are rarely followed up with "progress" reports and the reason being is the repugs in Congress won’t do anything about it even if some of it IS illegal, since they are in kahoots with the adminstration and the demos in Congress don’t have enough bodies to do much about it either. So in essence, all of this fraudulent activity simply gets dismissed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Right after 9/11, he invited many US >> Muslim leaders to the White House. > That’s "Public Relations" Show-biz. Just like when > Dickhead Cheney > met in secret with top energy industrialist CEOs > for the "Blue Skies" > initiative, but posed with environmentalists (who > were not allowed > to the meeting) for a Photo-op after the meeting. > No different than Bill & Hillary`s health care

meetings. There are closed > door meeting by both side, and I don`t like it,

no matter who does it. > "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." > Well we do agree on something. > You are a traitor to your species. > How so?

Didn’t you vote for those reptiles? You certainly always defend them and their actions, don’t you? Book recommendation: God’s Politics: How the Conservatives Got it Wrong and How the Liberals Don’t Get it. by Hal Wallis KABONG!~!~!~ "How did tax cuts for the rich become a religious imperative?" ~Hal Wallis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> See ya, > John

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> > This country’s government is largely financed by the Jews. You see how > Israel opperates.   How much proof do you need? > Ah. > One of *those*.  Figures.  Tell us about the ZOG, won’t you?

Mr. Valve, would you care to explain exactly why the population of every country in the Middle East – with the possible except of Israel –  despises the United States? -= Sniggles =- http://www.artcontext.org/activism/politics/bush.php http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm http://www.irelandsown.net/bushhitler.html http://www.bant-shirts.com/fuck-bush-t-shirt.htm http://artcontext.org/bushsucks/list.php

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